There have been a ton of posts here about how illegal it would be for Viagra to have a majority hispanic team in MLS. Well, watching the NLCS tonight and looking at the Marlins starting lineup I had to wonder about the place of birth of their team. Many of the players had hispanic names. So, I checked it out. Here is what I found. This is the place of birth of tonight's starting lineup. Juan Pierre: Alabama Luis Castillo: Domincan Republic Pudge: Puerto Rico Derek Lee: Cali Luis Cabrera: Venezuela Juan Encarnacion: Dominican Jeff Conine: Washington Alex Gonzalez: Venezuela 5 out of the 8 position players are of hispanic heritage. I haven't looked at the pitchers. I am just throwing this out there to ponder. I am not making a statement about "it will never happen" or "it is illegal in this country." I am just pointing out that the Marlins have a heavily hispanic team in Miami, which is a heavily hispanic market.
why not? you missed Lowell - puerto rico Pudge.....are you kidding me, is MR Rodriguez.....wnat pudge? 30 million hispanics in the country deserve a team!
That was just tonight's starting lineup. Obviously, there are other hispanics on the roster. I didn't even look at the pitchers. Pudge is a term of respect.
it's not the issue that's it is a majority hispanic team, jsut that Chivas wants another SI slot that other MLS clubs don't have. that's the main issue
Other sports, such as baseball, have never had a problem with getting Americans into the game. Before probably 1972, you would have been hard pressed to find more than just a token American or two on any NASL team, save the St. Louis Stars. Not only was there a dearth of American soccer talent, but even if the US and Canada had been teaming with then-unknown "phenoms," they wouldn't have made it because the foreign coaches brought in to the NASL would not have heard of them. They went with what they knew. The Stars and the Philly Atoms were anomalies at that time, even though they were moderately successful. It's "illegal" to have an all Hispanic team, or all anything team (except American) because MLS is mostly about developing American talent at a level higher than USL or semipro. Perhaps one day, when the talent superhighway goes both ways, we'll see more and more foreign stars come over here, as more and more American stars go other places. Remember, it hasn't been that long ago that NASL teams had to have "two" Americans on the field at all times. Even then, most of the American draftees rode the pine most of the season. We've come a long way.
That's the issue with me. I certainly wouldn't be able to have an openly all-white team, would I? I would hope the standard works both ways.
It is illegal to hire anyone on the basis of race, color, gender or sexual preference in this county. Therefore it isn't legal for Vergara to do it for an MLS team. The only thing that may save him would be the single entity thing. Since technically MLS hires everyone there would be a counterweight of non-hispanics to balance out the scales. Either way this idea is just wrong. This doesn't even begin to touch on the idea of changing the SI rules to accomodate this.
In principle, I don't find it to be such a great thing to go out of your way to emphasize one ethnicity over others on a team roster. I believe you should go after the best players regardless of ethnicity. I think that typically produces a team roster with a distribution of ethnicity (aside from internationals) that resembles that of the larger American soccer demographic. I believe we see that with most MLS sides. The point about MLS being a top-flight league that is designed to produce and mature American soccer players (as opposed to the NASL) is well taken. With all that stated, however, I wouldn't make a big deal out of it if Chivas wants to make a team of mostly Hispanic players--as long as most are American Hispanics and not internationals. I do not believe that Chivas should get an extra SI...and neither does the commissioner at this point. Although I am a bit confused as to what Garber means by his statement that they won't change that rule, but might be able to find a way to "bend" the rule...
Where we don't see an appropriate representation of Latinos is on USMNT. Our country has done an excellent job of developing the suburban youth elite leagues, most notably w/ the USWNT, which not too coincidentally is beginning to show the limitations of said system. We need to develop the inner-city. Until then, we will be a 2nd tier country.
Where in the US is soccer a big sport inside the "inner-cities?" I am honestly asking (no sarcasm). I know in my part of the country it is mostly a suburban sport.
You've asked an honest question, but legally it's pretty simple. To prove a "discrimination" claim, you basically need to prove two things (go easy on me if you study this for a living-- I'm a corporate lawyer for godsakes). (1) Discriminatory impact. This is easy. In the Marlins, you can find a "discriminatory" impact if there are more latinos than would be proportionate for the community (which community can be an open issue) and (2) Discriminatory intent. This is hard. In order to win, you basically need to come across internal memos that say disparaging things about the discriminated group. What's left of racism nowadays usually isn't stupid enough to leave such killer evidence. This is what would be missing from the Marlins... Unfortunately, Chivas has been running their mouths in the Spanish-speaking media like none of the rest of us don't speak Spanish. If their team happens to look predominantly latino and if there are players out there bitter/obnoxious enough to challenge it, they do have a claim. `
to ucla carlos I dont understand why there has to be an equal representation of latinos in mls or the us national team , players should be on a team based on their playing skills not the color of their skin or ethnicity. Is there an equal respresentation of whites in the nba?
It's a pretty good indicator of the success of a national federation in providing a thorough infrastructure that supports the success of the game. The lack of barrio kids on USMNT is indicative of the tremendous strides that need to be made in converting footie loving Latinos into A.) participants at the elite level B.) consumers of US futbol (MLS, USMNT). Univision/Telefutura/Galavision and Telemundo all do a decent job covering USMNT. This is an important revenue stream for the team. Also, it can be argued that the countries that have most efficiently dealt w/ and incorporated large masses of ppl from the 3rd world into their futbol system, are the ones who are having the most success of late. 1. France: WC '98, Euro 2000, best team qualifying for Euro 2004. Their dominant players (Zidane, Thierry) are immigrants or 1st generation. What about 2002? They were done in partially by their own success in developing the Senagalese Nats, most of whom play in the French League and many of whom have never lived in Senegal. 2. Germany: runner-up WC 2002. Don't see that many Turks on the GMNT. But, damn did they learn from the system and took it to Turkey, and helped build Turkey into a power. 3. England has done a decent job of incorporating their minorities in English footie. 2 sides that haven't done so well in incorporating new immigrants: Spain and Italy, although truly their immigration began to skyrocket in the early 90's. That's not enough time for them to incorporate immigrants into the system. This is a huge issue in Europe b/c Western Europeans have an infintesimal birth rate: they ain't having kids. But the immigrants ARE. So the Euro powers must begin to make sure that these groups go thrown into the mix, or they risk excluding a large chunk of their pool of players. This is the challenge for US Soccer and both men's and women's national teams.
This issue of Chivas insisting on a Hispanic weighted team is a non starter. If Chivas makes it an absolute, then I think MLS will pass them on ownership.
This is really simple for me. If what I'm hearing actually happens and is allowed to happen. I will no longer support the league nor my beloved Fire. Plain and simple it's wrong. I wonder what Jackie Robinson would say about this idea? Hmmmmmmmmm....mmmmmm
Yeah, Jackie Robinson, Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X are all undoubtedly turning over in their graves as we speak... What Cesar Chavez would point out is the glaring lack of non middle-class Latinos on USMNT. For Christ's sake, for the last 30+ years, Mexicans have been the #1 consumers of soccer in this country, and yet far too few of them have reached the elite level. I posit that the primary reason is that US Soccer and both national teams opted to cultivate the suburban soccer club scene and have virtually ignored the barrios. THAT is the true injustice, that the inner-city barrios have not been cultivated. Once again, try watching sports coverage on Univision or Telemundo. They actually showed a TON of footage of Freddie Adu this summer in Finland. Where was the coverage on the Anglophone stations? NO-WHERE, b/c soccer is just a suburban youth phenomenon for them. For us, soccer is our #1 sport.
Have they? Maybe if players are from the West Indies but races from other Comonwealth countries haven't exactly been brought in. Look at "Bend it Like SpiceBoy". There's an example of one of the large Indian populations. How many ethnic indians are in the English league (let alone the EPL)??
Re: Re: Majority Hispanic team PZ: most of the following isn't regarding your post, just my meandering thoughts... Indians and Pakistanis are not futbol fanatic countries. They assimilated a foreign game (cricket) and have creolized it and made it their own. (I don't know ANTHING 'bout field hockey, so I can't isplain dat one.) The project of assimilation of the aforementioned commonwealth nations is not analogous to that of the Central American in the Southwestern US (where Chivas wishes to expand). When I personally had to assimilate, soccer was my passion from birth, but here's what I had to deal w/: 1. all the kids played a sport that they didn't understand nor took too seriously. This confused me up worse than a right-wing military dictatorship ever did. 2. they and their fathers made fun of it. One time, my sister's coach scheduled a meeting during the WC final! When my dad informed him of the conflict, the coach had no idea what the WC was!! not only that, but he refused to change the meeting time and laughed at my "silly" dad. 3. the media completely ignored it, even when my entire community talked about NOTHING but the World Cup, the Anglophone media and Anglos in general were clueless and at times disrespectful. 4. To this day, the media states that "Americans don't like soccer". Whose America? Where I come from, it's the #1 sport hands down. Am I not American? And then some idiots post on threads in here questioning my legal status. I'm a frickin' American. I've got a blue passport, I carry w/ pride (not to mention so that I don't get interrogated and questioned as a drug runner no matter where i travel) b/c I chose to live here. I just thoroughly resent the media coming to my 'hood only to show murders and crime. I thoroughly resent that my dark, mulato brother gets pulled over by cops more than my lighter skinned ass. And ppl front that we have a color blind society. *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#. Ppl front like Martin Luther King's vision is coming to fruition. *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#. We're better off than we were 30 years ago. But we still have a society that is NOT colorblind. Ppl don't come up to me too often and say that a Latino is this or that, or that blacks are this or that. But the infrastructure of class division remains. In soccer, the way it plays out is that suburbia dominates the national scene despite the fact that Latinos are the #1 supporters of the sport. US Soccer has made little concerted efforts to bring the barrios into the fray. Any wonder why a lot of Latinos have a F' YOU attitude when it comes to footie? (Sorry to go off, but just had to get some of this off my chest... Sorry PZ, this wasn't directed at you! )
Re: Re: Re: Re: Majority Hispanic team I've addressed this issue in another thread. This is part of the power of Chivas: that it gains instant respect as it will attempt to cultivate the inner-city. Gosh, looks like you actually got creative and didn't just belge out "shut up. you're an IDIOT". I applaud your "creativity". Now, f' off, go watch your nightly news in English about your the violence in the 'hood, as they fawn over your beloved Sooners, wax poetic about the plight of the cubs and Red Sox, and then not mention $hit about your beloved Fire (damn good team, btw). I don't blame suburban America's apathetic relationship to soccer. I have no problem w/ it. I just like to point out that the true Soccer Nation in this country, is multi-lingual.
Ok, this disintegrated pretty quickly. The initial question posed was if the Marlins can field a heavily Hispanic team than why can't Chivas USA? The answer, simply, is they can. The Hispanics just have to earn their place on the team, like they did at the Marlins. If Chivas announces that they will not accept job applications from non-Hispanics that will be about as clear as a violation of the 14th Amendment's guarantees of Equal Protection as you can get. It's out & out unconstitutonal. If you have try-outs & the team ends up mostly Hispanic that's fine --- just like it's fine that the New Orleans Hornets field an all-black hoops team. As for the side-bar arguing the US should do more about recruiting Hispanics, particularly inner-city Hispanics --- CHEERS!! I agree!! But you can't argue that the USMNT should be more representative & integrated and then in the next breath argue that the MLS should field a segregated team of Hispanics in the MLS. If ethnic-blind integration is what you're after, why argue for a segregated team based on ethnicity?? That doesn't even come close to making sense. I think the whole idea is beat. I'm Irish-American (1st Generation) but if they create a New York Celtic team & fill it with the likes of O'Brien & McBride, I'd be the first one to say that's retarded.
Like your ignorant rants about the aesthetics of improper monikers. Like you know jack about imagined communities and fictitious identities... Nice example of barroque hiperbaton, or.. what? No, b/c my community actually watches soccer, so I don't need any other community to get my fill. But let's face it: the rest of the US needs us to keep footie afloat. I'll continue to invite ppl of ALL ethnicities over to my house to watch soccer b/c I'm into the love of the game regardless of color, language, etc. My point is that in order for the game to thrive here, we need to make sure the system is set up to provide for the best players to go through the system. Currently, for many reasons, it doesn't do so. MY PROPOSAL IS THAT US SOCCER NEEDS TO ADAPT ITS STYLE OF PLAY MORE TOWARDS THE LATINO END. There are over 30 MILLION footie loving Latinos here; it's gotta happen in order for us to get to the next level. What language, pray tell, is "inglais"? Is that franglish? WTF? BTW, sports vocabulary is considered a transferable linguistic skill. (That means it's learned easily.) And why is it that so many guys on USMNT speak Spanish? B/c it's hella useful in the true Soccer Nation.