This is from a post made by Jamisont in the Asian forum. This discussion no longer belongs there. He made a very informed post, though there are some ommissions and inaccuracies, which I feel is better addressed here. They already had an established government that they brought from Nanjing and already had administrative control of Taiwan since October 25, 1945. The government here was controlled by the Jiang (Chiang) family until the 1980s as well as the legislature that was elected from the Chinese provinces. However, once that legislature was nothing by octogenarians (many having already died off), legislative elections were held in the 1980s. The government still calls itself the Republic of China, despite the victory of the DPP in the most recent election, and still lists Taiwan on maps of China (which include Outer Mongolia and northern Myanmar BTW). Maps of the Republic of China published here also have the pre-49 provincial boundaries. True. This was a part of the Cold War struggle between the Soviets-Chinese and the West. Of course, the Soviets and Chinese had a falling out in the early 1960s, but most Americans didn't recognize this until the 1970s. Britain was one of the few Western powers to establish diplomatic relations with Beijing early on, many speculate to protect its interests in Hong Kong. This is partially true. Yes, the native born generally call themselves Taiwanese, but many also call themselves Chinese and refer to Taiwan as a province. I hear phrases like 'quan sheng' - (all over the province) quite often from native born Taiwanese and mainlanders alike. True. Koxinga (as he is known in the West) led a faction of Ming loyalists to Taiwan, parts around Jilong (Keelung) and Tainan being under Dutch control. With the help of the local Han population (having settled there in the preceeding two hundred years), he was able to oust the Dutch and establish his base for reclaiming China for the Mind Dynasty. Here, you miss a very important element of the history. In 1682, Koxinga's son died. In the mess of succession, Qing Dynasty naval forces took the island and made it a part of Fujian Province in 1683. This is the date from which Taiwan legally became a part of China. Actually, this incident occurred off of the eastern coast of Taiwan (an area even today comparatively underdeveloped). At the time, it was populated mostly by aboroginies (today called Gaoshanzu). It was Qing policy to allow ethnic minorities at the fringes of their empire to manage their own affairs so long as it didn't interfere with the running of their empire. A more accurate translation of what the Qing Emperor said would be "Taiwan is beyond our control." In the context of Chinese culture and history, a far different meaning than what you rendered. And it only referred to the east coast where the incident (there were many by the way) took place. This is fact. However, though this is the first time Taiwan was a province in its own right, it had been a part of Fujian since 1683. I am familiar with this. Two comments on this. One, it is not a legally binding statement (in terms of the independence of Taiwan). Two, What you say as a revolutionary and what happens when you are in power are not the same thing. Some pretty important ommissions here. In November, 1943, there was a meeting in Cairo between Roosevelt, Churchill and Jiang. At that meeting, it was agreed that Taiwan (along with Manchuria and Penghu - the Pescadores) would be returned to China. This agreement was confirmed at Potsdam in the summer of 1945. When Japan signed the instrument of surrender, it formally agreed to all of the terms of Potsdam (including the return of Taiwan to China). The sovereignty of Taiwan was legally transferred to China from Japan on September 2, 1945 with Chinese troops arriving on October 25th (still recognized as a holiday in Taiwan by the way.) Less than two years later actually. It is known as the 2-28 incident and occurred in 1947. They weren't protesting that Taiwan was not a part of China. They were protesting the harsh treatment of Taiwan by the Guomindang (which was also being protested on the Mainland in the form of a revolution.) The result was about 25,000 dead (far more than at Tian'anmen Square by the way). It is a day of remembrance today in Taiwan, though it took some fifty years for it to reach that status. I have given you some of the evidence as to why it should. To be honest, this is a difficult question, something that can't adequarely be discussed with little snippet posts. I have not seen any legislative action (all that really matters) to separate Taiwan from China. Of course, there are a whole host of political reasons for that. However, living in Taiwan, I don't see a groundswell of support here for Taiwan's independence. There are too many ties between Taiwan and the Mainland (cultural, historical, and economic) for that to be. As a foreigner living in Taiwan, I would like to see a peaceful resolution to this situation. However, this is a situation that should be settled by the peoples on the two sides of the straits, not by the Americans or other outsiders.
Posted by esvee in the Asian forum Then why do I hear so many people here in Taiwan (most of the people I know here are pre-49) refer to themselves as Zhongguoren (Chinese)?
What about the right to self-determination? A million or so Chinese fled to Taiwan, presumably because the prospect of a future as a comrade and citizen of the glorious people's republic did not appeal to them. (Yes, yes, there were "natives" as some people term them on the island, but the place WAS part of China) Why is it so essential that these people be returned to the tender mercies of the kleptocrats who now run the Communist Party in China? If they wanted to go, I'm sure they could find a boat. Does China, already a fourth of the world's population (or something like that) suffer for lack of people? Does this huge country somehow require this stinking little island in order to feed itself? Or is it really more a case of "settling scores" with the Nationalists? Because frankly, a big roadblock to reunification is the prospect of the political retribution which Mao's heirs would visit on Chaing's. Why can't they be left alone? Are they bothering you somehow? Have you run out of Tibetans to persecute or something? Not enough women to abort at gunpoint? China's professional torturers bored with "reeducating" Falun Gong members? The children and grandchildren of the Politburo members running out of factories to steal? And while your little trip down history 101 is interesting, your heavy reliance on an event in 1683 and the agreements made by the Big 3 during and after WWII is pretty weak. The map of the world was different in a LOT of nways in 1683. For one, Tibet had their own country. Is this a plea to give it back? And while you're at it, I heard the Moors want Spain back, too. And Portugal is getting a bit testy about Brazil. And Potsdam? Cairo? By what right did Stalin and Roosevelt award Taiwan to anybody? If they had decided to cede control to Swaziland or the Netherlands, would you be so impressed? In any other context, you would be having apoplexy over these three guys carving up the world to suit themselves. When these same guys hand the deed to South Syria over to the Jews, you aren't nearly so convinced of their right to do so. Funny how, when they agree with you, they are the last word in sovreignty.
Wow, you spent a lot of time to explain the situation to these ignorant people Ludahai. I'm glad to hear that most people in Taiwan province refer to themselves as zhong guo ren. But i'm afraid it will all be in vain because most Westerners still have McCarthyism. By the way have you been to the mainland. If so which cities have you visited
I just found a interesting article which hints that China doesn't get the credit it deserves and there is a conspiracy to keep China's fantastic development under wraps. This article is from a very neutral source. Now that is true censorship. That is propaganda by the imperialist yanks. "Are we facing a conspiracy of silence here, a deliberate attempt by certain global powers to downplay China's equal partner status and cast it in the role of an enemy that must be invented to justify military mobilisation after the collapse of the bipolar world order? This is an issue that needs to be carefully looked into. " http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/op3.htm
You Americans are afriad of China. Admit it. That's why you want Taiwan to be independent. So you can set up your good old American military there and invade us if we don't comply with what you have to demand. You also want to divide her up and make her weaker, sorry comrade, that old divide and conquer tactic won't work. You honestly think you yourself or America really gives a damn about Taiwan being independent or not? The American govt is just looking for an excuse so they can make money. Take Kuwait for example, you really think Americans really gave a damn about the Kuwaitis when Saddam invaded? Or defending justice, democracy and the good American way? Spare me the BS. All they wanted was the oil. And regarding all your questions, I have this one, Why can't you just keep your noses in North American matters instead of worrying yourself with how China deals with her own problems? You live halfway around the world from these people, and there's no need to involve yourself. "People should have the choice, human rights, blah blah blah." Maybe it's like this in the Western world, but get used to the fact, that the whole world doesn't operate on Western thoughts and beliefs. Human rights should be universal, but they're not. The world isn't perfect.
Absolutely. We go to bed every night scared to death of the Yellow hordes. The only people who do much demanding is the Chinese. We really couldn't care less about whether this little speck of land or that end up run by whomever. Just don't care. And if you think there's the slightest idea in ANY American mind, even the craziest lunatic, of invading China, you're completely insane. This level of paranoia would be hilarious if it wasn't so ridiculous. Why do we want this, and what is it we are doing to accomplish this? You want Taiwan back, I understand. But whether it goes back or not does not constitute "dividing" anything. It's already divided. Duh. Nope. Don't give a damn one way or the other. But we said we wouldn't let China invade and conquer this island, and we intend to keep our word. If you don't like it, I understand. But it's not going to change. The American government does not "make money". American industry makes money. And if there was some way to make a ton of dough off of exploiting Taiwan, they'd be doing it, make no mistake. Unfortunately, the only people making money off of Taiwan are the Taiwanese. You want to pretend we're some colonial occupier, be my guest, but it's not true. They are trading partners, but our balance of payments with them is a net loss for the US economy. Would it be too much to ask that you get one or two facts right once in awhile? So far, you're batting .000. Does Taiwan now have a bunch of oil? Any oil? The Kuwait example is completely ridiculous and irrelevant. Yes, we went into Kuwait to protect our economy from the effects of Hussein controlling a huge portion of the world's oil reserves. But it has nothing whatever to do with Taiwan? What is it we exploit out of them? Hey, I have a crazy idea? Why don't you try and answer one of them before you ask one of your own? Just a thought. Tell you what: why don't we let the people WHO ACTUALLY LIVE THERE decide what they do and don't "need"? You know, the Taiwanese? Anytime you want to hold a plebiscite and anything approaching a majority says they want to be part of the People's Republic, we have no problem with it. Until then, we're pretty much in favor of them running their own affairs. Frankly, they do a pretty good job of it. Doesn't mean we should stop working on it though, now does it? And frankly, we just don't see how turning a nation of millions of people who have many of these freedoms over to the dictatorship of a nation who has none is such a good idea.
**Afraid of what? Why should we fear such a peace loving, human rights respecting nation? If anyone should be afraid its the Russians (among others) who see China's long term intentions to invade Eastern Siberia and seize the oil and gas fields. My only question is, does China plan to invade the Spratlys before the Republic of China or does that come later? **And why would we ever want to invade China? What do you have that we could possibly want? If you take a look at the current trade imbalance and the billions gushing your way from American coffers, China is the one enriching itself from the US. Face it, the only thing we would ever want in China is customers and it is not necessary to invade to accomplish that. **Kuwait, yes we defended the oil but the dirty little secret is that Europe and Japan were far more dependent on their oil than we ever were. I suppose the noble thought of freeing a captive people was an added bonus as well. Other than that, we were just the hired guns for our "friends." And if all we wanted was the oil, why are we still bidding like everyone else and paying market prices? **The Republic of China? Yes, they deserve the right to self determination. If they don't want to be a part of your "collective", why should they? **America is a Pacific nation as well. We have allies in the region who frequently ask for our help so other powers do not get too ambitious. Of course you don't want us involved so you can overrun the region. Face up to it dude, if they need us, we'll be there. **So you are saying human rights in only a Western thing? Perhaps you should tell Japan, Korea, Republic of China, Thailand, Indonesia, India, Malaysia, and the rest that they need to get with the program. I'm sure Gahndi, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, and a plethora of other Asian human rights heroes (including those brave tortured souls in your country) would strongly disagree. Oh that's right, your leaders are afraid of Chinese people being exposed to their thoughts. If their system is so superior, shouldn't it be able to stand such a test? What are they afraid of?
that's exactly what I'm saying. Asian human rights heroes?? Unheard of. Chinese people have their own thoughts, but if you are a smart Chinese, like most, you keep it to yourself.
You mainland Chinese are afriad of the democracy. Admit it. That is why the CCP wants to take over Taiwan and destroy the wonderful democracy that is developing there. If Taiwan wants to hold an election on rejoining the mainland, that is fine. If the CCP wants to invade Taiwan to destroy the democratic government elected by its citizens, we will be there to help our friends defend themselves.
But why should a "smart Chinese" person keep their own thoughts to themselves? Isn't this ultimately is what is keeping China from being the great country that it could become?
No you won't, there is no way the US is going to risk a nuclear war over Taiwan. Economic sanctions for a few years maybe but no one is going to lift even a finger to help Taiwan except for the Taiwanese themselves. Not that china is going to invande anyway but let's be realistic here.
Only if you're not very bright. Do Americans care who is in charge of every little flyspeck on Earth? Absolutely not. Do we feel we have a committment to the people of Taiwan? Yes, very much so. Got it now? Didn't think so.
what commitment to Taiwan? Oh yes, that's right, the puppet government the US is trying to set up so it can stir trouble within China, I forgot.
why do you put "smart Chinese" in quotations? Trust me if you were a smart Chinese you don't ever want to risk a bullet to the back of your head, or for that matter be branded as someone who opposes the PRC govt. This may be a hinderance for China to become great, but the democracy you are suggesting which China should have will GRADUALLY come. Change takes time. We are not going to suddenly overnight adopt western democracy, we are not stupid like our Russian neighbours.
Mao's heirs and Jiang's heirs? Not particularly an important score on either side of the straits these days. How is it weak? Come up with some counterpoints rather than blanket denuciation. According to international law, these are VERY relevant facts. Japan agreed to the agreements made by the big 3 (plus China) when they signed the instrument of surrender, making them legally binding on Japan. They were also legally binding on the Big 3 according to the precedent set in the Eastern Greenland case that arose out of the Ihlen Declaration in the 1920s and early 1930s. Technically, the Japanese returned Taiwan back to China when it signed the instrument of surrender. The agreement is that all territory captured by Japan from China would be returned. In the case of the Diaoyutai (Senkaku) Islands, this has yet to be fulfilled, and should have technically been restored to Chinese sovereignty. Comparing apples and oranges. Japan was the legal sovereign over Taiwan from 1895 to 1945 by reason of cession by China after Japan's victory in the Sino-Japanese War. Technically, it was Japan who ceded Taiwan back to China with the Instrument of Surrender on September 2nd, 1945. One of the provisions was the unconditional and immediate acceptance of ALL of the provisions of the Potsdam Proclamation. No such history or agreements in place in the case of Israel/Syria.
Casualfan, i don't think china should ever become a democracy. I would be pretty dissapointed if we ended up like the imperialist yanks.
Sadly, you are correct. You even MENTION the word Communist to many Americans and they go into a tizzy. Most Americans don't even understand that Communism is an economic system, NOT a political one. They won't even look past the word and see that China in 2002 is NOT communist. In fact, there are elements here in the Republic of China that are more socialist than on the mainland. By the way. I have lived in Ji'nan and Shanghai. I have also visited Qingdao, Qufu, Tai'an, Beijing, Tianjin, Xuzhou, Nanjing, Suzhou, Wuxi, Hangzhou, Guangzhou, Chengdu, Lhasa, Shanhaiguan, Dalian, Dandong, Shenyang, Changchun (host of the 2007 Asian Winter Games), Jilin, Harbin, and Heihe.
The call was for people to discuss this issue in an intelligent and respecful fashion. However, it is well known that certain personalities are incapable of bringing that to any type of discourse.
Why does this discussion always turn into an argument about invasion. China is not about to invade Taiwan. That will only happen if Taiwan makes a declaration of independence, something that is not going to happen. Their isn't the popular support here for such a declaration. The status quo is the best scenario for Taiwan right now. As for the destruction of Taiwan's democracy, that runs contrary to the One Country, Two Systems scenario that was laid out by Deng Xiaoping (still the official position of the PRC) prior to his death. Taiwan Province would still be allowed to retain control over its local affairs in a reunification plan. In reality, the status quo will likely exist for the next twenty years, at least. In my opinion, this is what is best for both sides of the straits.
I would not call the government here in the ROC a puppet government of the United States. Heck, the US doesn't even have diplomatic relations with the ROC. The system here is an elective system. The people here in Taiwan have a genuine admiration and liking for the US, even if they sometimes question the liberal (in traditional CHinese eyes) nature of American society.