I am making this thread, because in real life and on the internet I have seen too many comments like this earlier in the season. "Chelsea shouldn't play 3 at the back, because 3 at the back does not work in England." "3 at the back only works in Italy, no team in the Premier League has ever won it playing 3 at the back." "Just like when Rodgers switched to 3 at the back, Chelsea will have some initial success, but when teams work it out they will be exposed just like Rodgers" Now Chelsea have done so well and Tottenham too recently, I have been seeing and hearing comments like this. "Chelsea only look good, because they play 3 at the back." "Crystal Palace should switch to 3 at the back, because it stopped Chelsea conceding goals." "3 at the back is the new modern way to play football". All this is a lot of rubbish, just like the stupidity of claiming that 4-4-2 was finished, when Leicester won the league playing like that, Atletico had incredible success and Burnley (the worst team in the league) are doing so well. Every formation has it's own strengths and weaknesses, but the key is to find a formation that suits your players. The 4-4-2 suits Burnley. The 3-4-3 suits Chelsea and Tottenham. Fans and even managers seem to think that one formation is modern and magical. Why have so many teams switched to 3 at the back when playing Chelsea and been smashed to pieces? What drove me to break down was when Zidane went to 3 at the back during the weekend. Zidane was someone I had praised for his consistent formation and tactics and then suddenly switches to a back 3. Quite fitting that he received his first loss. Jamie Carragher mentioned it last night, but a 3-4-3 relies on the central midfielders and the wing backs have exceptional stamina. They have to cover so much ground for the formation to work. If you don't have players that have exceptional stamina in those 4 positions then it is going to fall apart. The wide centre backs need to be comfortable going and defending out wide, which most centre backs are not comfortable doing. I could go on, but the formation works when you have the right players for it. You pick a formation, which gets the best out of your best players. Secondly players need tactical consistency. Players are not robots and learn by repetition. The best teams don't even have to think where there teammates are going to be. Through constant pracitice in training and matches they know. This works defensively and in attack. Tuchel and Guardiola are the worst offenders of this and they are both doing poorly in the as a result.
I agree with most of what you say here. Every player has tactics that bring out the best performance in them personally I am a fan of 4231. As I believe It has a solid defensive base. A solid midfield to handle the gameplay. The striker might be isolated and this often favours strikers who are very mobile and can play with their back to the post
I prefer 352 which is still a variant but with the right players. As for Madrid, it's not even the 343 that actually sabotaged them, they've been playing average and disjointed for a long time now if not for Ramos who constantly come out with something brilliant to save them. Also, I don't see the sense of playing 343 without having a ball playing defender in the middle as well as using Kroos in the no 10 role or the fact that Casiemiro is too limited to play as one of the box-box 8 in the setup. I believe Zidane gave the setup a try because he wanted Ronaldo to be moved to a much more forward role because he's been a complete liability on the wing for some time now. However he should have known that Ronaldo's depreciating pace requires a more pacey player such as Bale who would create the space needed. Bale should have played alongside him, not Benzema. IIRC, Bale has always been great as a SS while he was at Spurs and whenever tried in the role at Madrid. Bale is still out injured though. Well I guess something like this below should be good enough: ....Ramos - a ball playing CB - Nacho/Pepe...; ..Carvaja - Modric/Kovacic - Kroos - Marcelo...; ..............................James.....................; ..........................Bale - Ronaldo.................... I also think this will get the best out of James who's more at his best when playing in the final third, more like a traditional no 10. This setup is more or less like a midfield diamond where the ball playing CB stepped into the midfield to build up the play as a DM with the two no 8 situated in front him on each sides and a no 10 in front of them to play behind two forwards.
Personally I'm partial to the 4-3-3. I think it offers fluidity in attack without being anarchic and provides good balance for a team. But I agree that formations have to make sense with the personnel. It doesn't make sense to use 3-at-the-back or 4-at-the-back if a team is drilled and geared the other way. They also have to bring out the best qualities in the players. A player like Vardy or Griezmann is at their best playing off another forward, so it makes sense to use a two--striker formation to get the best out of them.
It's going to take a while for Dortmund's players to expand their games and become able to fluidly switch positions and formations between, or even during matches. Probably at least through this season. But that's what you sign up for when you hire a coach like Tuchel, who wants to unlock new qualities in his players and compose a diverse menu of tactical options rather than just sticking to the most orthodox solutions given the existing roster. The time spent experimenting with wingbacks, Raphael at the #8, Götze/Kagawa in a deeper lying CM role, etc. will eventually start to pay off.
No I don't think it ever pays off. It didn't work for Guardiola at Bayern and he has abandoned doing so at City. He is back to a fairly regular shape and formation. Tuchel's meddling has ruined a potential title challenge. Players are not robots and yesterday despite Reus's poor finishing it showed just how important relationships are. Auba linked up with Reus incredibly well and set him up with three glorious chances. Players need consistency to build those relationships. It's better for a player to be a master of one position than a jack of all trades in every position. Especially at the back you need a reliable partnership that understand each others game. Last season he was fairly consistent and the results proved it. This season he is more determined with showing how intelligent he is than relying on the players. Players are the most important thing at the end of the day.
A title challenge was never happening eaglespark. You don't lose your three best players, four if you include Reus being injured, and then just shrug it off, particularly if the replacements are below par. The closest replacement player to fully replacing is Dembele, who is still too raw and turnover-prone to reach the heights Mkhitaryan did last year. A title challenge would've required relative continuity with maybe one player leaving and then additional reinforcement from there. At best, Dortmund could be at where Leipzig is right now, which is still significantly off the pace from Bayern. Also, Tuchel has been relatively consistent with the 4-1-4-1 for a fair stretch now IIRC, so I'm not sure how applicable that is now.
I disagree. A title challenge would never have been possible had Bayern been hitting the heights of last season. The gap is 12 points and think of all the games we lost late already? The Leipzig game, the Mainz game the Frankfurt game. Then look at the really poor draws such as against Augsburg or Inglostadt. Tuchel has done terribly to be 12 points of Bayern. The 4-1-4-1 does not work. It forces Kagawa/Gotze to play out of position and leaves the team looking disjointed. Even when he is consistent with formation he always messes about with the personnel. Losing key players I expected a difficult start, but by now he should have found a formation, a regular first 11 and a style of playing that was going from strength to strength. Too much is made of losing 3 key players. Mkhitaryan was very well replaced with Dembele, Gundogan barely played in the second half of the season, and that leaves us Hummels who was a big blow. However, Tuchel deserves blame for his terrible signings to replace them. He chose Bartra and Rode.
Yeah, given that the Buli title was too much to ask it sort of makes sense to devote the year to player development and exploration. I don't think the tactical variants are that crazy - basically there is a 4-3-3 and a 3-4-3, with tweaks depending on the available personnel and opponent of the week. As long as you can stay in the top 3 by the end of the season, why not push the envelope a bit? At the same time the team has brought focus and intensity for the big opponents like Bayern and Madrid.
I think winning the league was too much to ask for, but not challenging. To have no hope of winning the league before the winter break is a pathetic and nothing can justify it. The tactical variants have been 4-1-4-1, 4-2-3-1, 3-4-3 which is a lot of changes, but more importantly look at all the different partnerships that have been used. There has been no consistency at all. Look at all centre backs we have used Piszczek, Bender, Bartra, Ginter, Merino and Sokraits in back threes, in back fours etc. How is the team supposed to gel? How are they supposed to understand each other. Just staying in the top 3 in this season is not a good season. Auba, Reus, Weigl and Sokratis backed up the likes of Dembele, Burki and Raphael is an incredibly strong team. The quality of the Dortmund team blows apart the likes of Sevilla, Tottenham, Roman, Monaco etc yet they have put together a far stronger league campaign.
Yes, the quality that Dortmund has is stunning, but the holes are glaring. To your point about the revolving door of center backs - if anyone had established a consistent string of performances next to Sokratis, the lineups would reflect that. Do you think it'd be better just to fix one guy in that spot (say, Bartra) and let him play through the ups and downs? Same goes for the double 8s and Götze/Kagawa.
Yes I would prefer he say to Bartra/Ginter or whoever that "you are my man at the back and for the next 8 games or so I am giving you your chance." Let him play, let him gain some confidence, let him not worry if he is going to play the next week and let him form a partnership. If after those run of games he is not good enough then get a replacement. As for the double 8s I would prefer he drop that formation completely. We don't have one good 8 let alone 2. We do have two number 10s so play a formation with number 10s.
Given Chelsea's success with 3-4-3 I would have liked to see Tuchel try out out during the break. Something like: --Reus--Auba--Dembele-- --RG--Weigl--Gotze--Passlack-- --Merino--Sokratis--Ginter/Bartra Gotze would have had to play deep, but with the lack of good CBs Merino could have been tested there (although he isn't a defender). Playing Ginter and Bartra at the same time doesn't seem like a smart idea given their brainfarts. I wonder if Weigl can slide into Kante's role.
I usually agree with you, but this is exactly the sort of argument I was critising. The 3-4-3 works for Chelsea, because Conte came up with the perfect formation that suits all of their players except for Cahill. Every other player is given a job that maximises their skills and minimises their weaknesses. Conte is a big fan of the 4-2-4 and initially wanted to play that, but realised he did not have the players. He then thought of the 4-3-3 or the 3-5-2, but again realised that didn't suit his players. He finally settled on the 3-4-3. A 3-4-3 does not suit and does not get the best out of the players we have. Bartra/Merino/Ginter are never going to be wide centre backs. To be a wide centre back you need to be comfortable coming out wide and defending one on one. None of them are capable of doing it. It also helps if you can switch the ball with long cross field passes to from the RCB to the the LWB. Sokratis hasn't got the ball playing to play in the centre and he hasn't shown he is a great organiser. Playing Gotze is a 4 man midfield is a joke. It's literally suicide. Gotze is a 10 and needs to play there, he does not have the energy or the speed to play deeper. It would be madness to play him there. Even Weigl suffers when played out of position. Kante plays nothing like Weigl. Kante covers the entire pitch and is always closing down. He is incredible at pressing with the energy of 2 men. Play a 4-2-3-1. -------------Burki------------- Passlack--Sokratis--Bender--Raphael -------------Weigl--Merino-------- Dembele-------Gotze---------Reus ---------------Auba------------ Everyone is playing in their best position in a role they are used to. When Bender is injured, which will be more often than not then pick one of Bartra/Ginter. Tuchel wanted to play a 4-1-4-1 in the summer with Oliver Torres being bought instead of Gotze. I have not seen much of Oliver Torres, but he might have been able to play that role. Gotze cannot. Instead of adapting the formation and tactics to suit the players, Tuchel has stubbornly and foolishly stuck with a losing formation forcing players to play out of position. I am now starting to think the reason he won't play a 4-2-3-1 is to send a message to the board.
We don't have players to even play the 4-1-4-1. At least one of the attacking midfielders needs to be a b2b player in the mould of Kante, Pogba, Vidal, Keita etc. Once we secure a no. 8 we'd have all the necessary players for a 4-2-3-1. Why get Gotze back and keep Kagawa if playing with a no. 10 wasn't in the cards? Our build up play would be so much better with a guy like Dahoud or even better Tielemans next to Weigl. I've been watching some highlights and Tielemans is on fire. He's going to be chased by some big clubs. I hope Zorc has already got a pre-contract for him. I'd love to see this attack/midfield/FB combo at BVB in a couple of years: Isak Dembele - Pulisic - Mor Weigl - Tielemans Gurreiro - Ginter - Merino - Passlack I threw in Ginter and Merino for kicks. However, if we sell PEA, Reus, Gotze we could have enough funds to build a decent squad around these guys that we can even hold on to.
I grew up with 4-4-2 and 4-3-3. The latter is still popular, but 4-2-3-1 is very effective, if there are quality 8 and 10 in the team.
Pogba..United paid 100 mil and he can't function in 4-2-3-1. See, his only desirable position is on tge left at 4-3-3. So much money and so little return.
That's not all Pogba's fault. Just because he cost them 100M doesn't mean he can play anywhere and any how on the pitch. Juventus got the best out of him by playing him in the right position and surrounded him with the best possible players. United aren't doing any of that. All they've done is piled the pressure of his price tag. #getRidOfTransferFees
C'mon, then don't call him b2b if he is effective in one position. He does not have defensive discipline, so Carrick has to be the 3rd midfield guy to babysit him.
It is disappointing to see that Pogba needs not one but two workhorses covering his rear in midfield at all times to be effective though. Kante/Sissokho and Matuidi for France and Marchisio and Vidal for Juventus. For someone that hyped, you'd think he'd have a more versatile skillset.
Ignoring whether he justifies the hype, why do you have to be versatile? Lampard was an excellent player and he too needed to play in a 4-3-3. The same could be said for Gerrard. It's very rare for a young player to be able to control a midfield. Kroos and Alonso are probably the two best youngsters I can think of. Verratti and Gundogan were very good young too. The greats like Pirlo, Xavi and Scholes actually learnt to play deeper and control games much later on. That's why you play a formation to suit the strengths of the players you have. Pogba is exceptional at so many aspects of the game, but he is not worth his fee. Maybe in 2 years time he will be.
For my taste, Ibra is too slow for 4-3-3 and Miki does better in the middle. Yes, midfield 3 is a solution to control the games against stronger opposition, but the attack suffers a bit. If they get Griezmann, Auba or somebody fast in CF position, then 4-3-3 would look fine.