News: Lyon oppose Abily and Bompastor transfer

Discussion in 'NWSL' started by Dandal, Feb 12, 2009.

  1. Dandal

    Dandal Member

    Jul 20, 2002
    Sweden
    Club:
    --other--
    The French club Olympique Lyonnais today released a communique, stating that they will oppose the proposed transfer of players Camille Abily and Sonia Bompastor to Los Angeles and Washington during the French season. If the American clubs confirms agreements with the players, OL will take legal action and ask for damages. The club adds that it has the support of the French Football Association in this matter.

    I don't know much about contracts in the French league, except that the Championnat falls under the regulations for French amateur leagues, which might have some consequences in this case. Neither do I have any idea how strong Lyon's position is here, but I would presume that Abily and Bompastor are registred as Lyon players for the 2008/09 season. I also believe that this registration, per FIFA regulations, has to be transferred to the WPS clubs in question before the players can participate in any competition. If Lyon refuses to cooperate, well, things can get interesting.
     
  2. Youssef Youmas

    Youssef Youmas New Member

    Feb 12, 2009
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    it is frantastic to see someone stand up against a club and league that tell everyone we are going to buy that player..in mens football that is called illegal approach...and no club will say we have signed another teams player then try and talk to the player...

    Lyon should refuse a transfer unless they are paid..why should they let them leave for free..lyon pays them now...
     
  3. Bonnie Lass

    Bonnie Lass Moderator
    Staff Member

    Lyon
    Norway
    Oct 20, 2000
    Up top
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Wow. And OL definitely has the money to take the WPS to task, if it comes down to that.
     
  4. kool-aide

    kool-aide Member+

    Feb 1, 2002
    a van by the river
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, do we know the terms of the two players' contracts w/ Lyon? (a rhetorical question. if y'all knew, you'd post it) In general, aren't players free to negotiate w/ other teams in the last 6mos of their contracts? Or is that just men? I admit to complete ignorance as to any differences btwn the transfer system for women's soccer (internationally) and men's.

    Count me as one that felt the whole "draft to be able to to be the one WPS team that talks to said internat'l player" thing was stupid. I mean, I can see how the WPS folks wanted to avoid fighting each other and w/o the single entity of MLS, there has to be a mechanism. But I don't understand why they couldn't have simply done it in house (ie secretly) & just announced signings.
     
  5. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And deprive all of us the chance to speculate on who's coming / not coming and how well each team did in the draft? We'd have been completely in the dark for 3 months or so in most cases.

    Honestly. Please...

    And right now the league is looking pretty good in terms of signings, isn't it? (Well, maybe except St Louis...)
     
  6. Cville K C

    Cville K C Member

    Nov 3, 2008
    Collinsville, IL
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know where you're coming from and I kind of agree, but I can see the WPS side of this, too. First, as you mentioned, they didn't want to be fighting with each other over interanational players. That does make fiscal sense in a league with not a lot of financial assets. Second, if they had kept it a secret, the minute LA signed Marta, some people would have said the fix was in. The league is trying to insure that the big cities, namely New York and Los Angeles, do well. The way the WPS is doing it may not be ideal and is certainly not what the rest of the world wants to see, but at least it's above board.

    As far as Abily and Bompastor are concerned, ultimately if they want to play in the US, they will play here. Olympique Lyonnais is delaying the inevitable. I was wondering, and I really don't know for sure, is the same criticism being made about Beckham and Milan on the men's side. I know he's on loan right now, but you've got to believe there were some talks over there about him coming over permanently, before Milan approached the MLS about a transfer. The other question I had was whether FIFA rules for transfers are the same for men and women. Does anyone know?
     
  7. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    in france and europe in general there is no such thing as professional women's football. even if the recent signing of lotta schelin got a lot of ink and she's getting about 160,000 euros a year, her contract doesn't have the same statute as those of male pros.

    some points however:

    an FFF license (player's card) is a FIFA recognized document, and even a 12 year old can't get his amateur license transferred in the middle of a season or even between seasons without both clubs signing the document.

    these ladies are under contract to the club in other capacities and receive remuneration i would estimate between 50 an 100 thousand euros a year, and if such a contract is easier to break than onr specifically for playing it is a commitment the abandonment of which can lead to damages.

    the FFF is going to back OL to the hilt; probably UEFA and perhaps FIFA will also have a word in the matter. because of Aulas' clout but also because OL is the club in europe that's doing the most to promote the women's game.

    the lack of pro contracts at OL isn't due to pennypinching but the present statutes concerning women and them losing out this way is going to set the game back a long way.

    on the surface, OL doesn't seem to have a leg to stand on. but before this is over a lot of fur is going to fly and in the end it will make jurisprudence in an area where little exists at the moment.
     
  8. Dandal

    Dandal Member

    Jul 20, 2002
    Sweden
    Club:
    --other--
    There are only one set of FIFA regulations on player transfers. It does not make any difference between male and female players. The regulations does however differ between amateur and professional players. The difference in transfer regulations for amateurs and professionals is one of the reasons why the Swedish FA has decided that all Damallsvenskan players must be contracted as professionals.
     
  9. katmagill

    katmagill New Member

    Feb 13, 2009
    Club:
    AC Milan
    I think whatever happens the longer it goes on the better for the game..
    The longer it goes on the more people around the world will hear about it..

    Then this will do nothing but shine a negative light on the WPS...in Europe the teams from Arsenal and Umea to Lyon have nothing but dislike for the way the league did things...

    It was already brewing when all the German players said they would not go..If the English start their league then they would ask clubs in the traditional way..but to announce you have a player and start to talk about them and make plans about where they will be playing..under FIFA rules that is not allowed is it?

    Tottenham said Manchester did it with Berbatov..

    Whatever happens it would be very respectful if the WPS president came out and said something about the way they have acted and turned everyone against them..


    This was okay in 2001 but this is 2009 and there is a Champions league for women starting next year..UEFA will surely step in soon. It is very bad for relations and goes against the spirit of female football.
     
  10. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As yet we don't know if the WPS teams have done anything improper. As others have pointed out, you can contact a player who has 6 months or less to go on their contracts.

    One thing which stirred confusion and resentment was the draft, a concept unfamiliar to the Europeans and which seemed to them like the WPS teams were selecting European and other international players without regard to their contracts with their current clubs. The point of the draft wasn't to usurp the rights of the European teams to their players under contract; it was to create a more level playing field for the WPS teams so that one team (in an extreme example) couldn't buy up all the best players in the world. They're trying to avoid a situation like the Premier League where you pretty much have four teams at the top with all the money and all the ability to buy the best players and leave everyone else playing for scraps.
     
  11. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    first of all, in this case, proper or improper they have done nothing illegal at all: none of OL's ladies players, even schelin, have playing contracts at all. of course lotta, and camille and sonia, make rather good livings at OL, but ostensibly working for OLTV, OL marketing or as coaches or scouts. the team plays in an AMATEUR championship and must remain technically amateur. the statute of professional does not exist for women in france and probably almost nowhere in europe.

    coincidentally and ironically, bompastor and abily were on OLTV a few months ago talking about the need to professionalize the women's game and the progress OL had made in that direction.

    the problem is that if aulas would like to see this happen, no clubs in france, and probably no more than half a dozen are in a position to follow suit at the moment. look at the domestic championships, where OL or arsenal can run away with it and outscore opponents 10 to 1 over the season, and even in the UEFA cup competition really only begins with the last 8. arsenal, umea and Lyon certainly dislike the way the WPS is doing things... but in their domestic leagues they'll get little sympathy since they've done much the same.

    but perhaps for a good cause: women's football is a hard sell, and outside of the US the only way to make it big time is for men's clubs to underwrite the women's game. that's what OL, arsenal and chelsea have started, and in a few years other clubs like madrid and barcelona (which are multisports clubs with women's sections already) would have followed. if what we see here goes much further, these clubs are going to pick up their marbles and go home.

    above all, what's good for the WPS is almost certainly bad for women's football on the whole and the worst part is doing it right in what is the middle of the season for the rest of the world. they've knocked the UEFA cup into a cocked hat, and just as important, the WPS season ends august 22 and the euro starts on... august 23.

    a lot of patient work in europe is being destroyed practically overnight. and if the WPS goes the way of the WUSA in a couple of years, women's football will have been running around in circles, finally to just start over from zero.
     
  12. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    this is an important point. some posters have been suggesting that wps did something illegal. they did exactly what was needed to avoid one or two teams getting the best players and they did exactly what was needed to get what little publicity they could scratch months before any game has been played.

    this is the direction that the players want the game to go and so, in the long run, does fifa. so the european teams can be upset if they want, but they'd be going against some of their best players if they take that approach.

    if sweden and the u.s.a. can show the way to professionalize the women's game, then step by step, england, germany and france etc. will need to act. they will have to adjust their amateur leagues or try pro leagues that are single entity like wps.

    as you might guess from what i've written above, this seems to be a very myopic view. and if wps fails, it will appear to be the correct one. but i'm hoping that it is the wrong one, and that the wider, long term view prevails.
     
  13. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    they did exactly what was needed to avoid one or two teams getting the best players

    that is of course the logic behind a draft, but it only works if all the teams can sign the players they draft. the NFL has a monopoly that makes their draft work, but all these ladies have a choice. since one of the big lures is just to experience the american way of life (like on TV!) LA is obviously going to have better luck than StL in signing their draftees... and note abily wasn't drafted at all.

    this is the direction that the players want the game to go...

    some players... but the only country with anything like enough players to make a real pro league on their own is the US (SEVEN teams at that). even the UEFA cup is still a non-competition until the KO rounds get going. that situation WAS gradually improving... oh well!

    i'm hoping that it is the wrong one, and that the wider, long term view prevails.

    imo it's the WPS that's being myopic. the fact is that women's football both in europe and the states today is borderline as a pro sport. the long term, and the best chance for everyone, was to try to cooperate. i can guarantee that someone like aulas would have been thrilled at a chance to work with and help the WPS under other circumstances, and he has the wherewithal to do it: a war chest he can't even manage to spend that could bankroll the whole league 5 times over! but he's not pleased at having his captain and 2-time POTY swept from under his nose a few weeks before their european semifinal, and he can be a vindictive fellow.

    the WPS didn't even take the trouble to coordinate their calendar with europe. with 10,000 spectators per match at 10€ a head, the last rounds of the UEFA promised to be as big a success as the WPS is hoping to be, but that may be compromised now. and what about when the NT's convoke their players to prepare for euro 2009? these ladies will either miss the last couple of weeks of the american season or not play for their countries. pretty shoddy if you ask me.
     
  14. JanBalk

    JanBalk Member+

    Jun 9, 2004
    It wasn't any secret that they would start and if any club hadn't prepared and had it’s Key players under contract that is just bad planning. At least in UK WPS have made the FA what they hadn't done by themselves for 20 years (and wouldn't have happened in 20 more) starting paying their top players.
    And hove OL can pay someone almost 100 000 Euro/year on a amateur contact is beyond me.
     
  15. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    not bad planning, simply following the rules... not even in fact! paying players in an amateur league that kind of shekels for semi-existant jobs is not just bending the rules, it's tying them in double knots!

    and it may be that OL saw this coming and prepared better than i thought: the signings of lara dickenmann et ingvild stensland seemed hard to justify until this came about.

    of course i may have things backwards: the arrival of this kind of competition for their spots may have gotten up camille's and sonia's nostrils. and i've already wondered if schelin's arrival may have crimped some wicks. the team gets to use the very cushy team bus to go to matches, but for NT matches in sweden, lotta gets ferried there and back by private jet! (it's really for källström but still...)
     
  16. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    that's hardly ever going to happen. even in the nfl sometimes players tell teams that they will never play for them, and they have to make do with another player. but you still have to let the teams pick in some orderly sort of fashion. the wps can't be given the impossible task of making life fair. they did what pro leagues in the u.s.a. do to try to even things out. they had a draft.

    the good ones by and large do, and if they're good enough and can draw enough, they deserve a pro career.

    if aulas has a war chaest that he can't even manage to spend that could bankroll the league 5 times over, why didn't he get likeminded people together and start a small pro league in europe. then the wps wouldn't have been as big a threat.

    they can barely fit their games into the already tight u.s. sports schedule. mls has been trying to align with europe for years and they can't. furthermore, soccer is a business. the wps is competing with european teams for players. that's how it's supposed to be. it's what fifa wants. it's what most of the good players want. and for euro 2009, wps will simply have to obey fifa's rules and release their euro players just like the euro teams have to release their players during copa america. it'll be a struggle but it's not that unusual.

    look, we are all trying to promote women's football here. i just think that the pro way is the way to go, and to do that you have to start up a business and compete for the best players right away. there's no halfway way to do it. it may slow things down in europe temporarily, but (i know you don't agree) i think that in the long run it will be better for the women's game. my only worry is the economy. this is the worst time to start up a new women's league. but the wps could not have seen this coming. they just have to roll the dice.
     
  17. JanBalk

    JanBalk Member+

    Jun 9, 2004
    In that case it is still bad planing, not by OL but by the French FA that is enforcing rules that make it impossible for French clubs to compete fairly.

    There are no rules forcing the French FA (except perhaps their own) to define their womens league as professional or amateur, they could very well define it as semi-professional and let the clubs and players themselves decide which players they want/need to have as professional and which as amateurs.
     
  18. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    well, the FFF has to think first of all about letting french clubs compete fairly among themselves; they have regulations ostensibly to this end that hamper our men's teams in europe as well. of course their idea that sport is not all about money is antiquated and foolish but there you go!

    well, where wages are very low one uses the term but i don't think semi-professional really exists as a legal statute, it's either one or the other. in france only 3, perhaps 4 clubs could go pro even in the most modest way and that doesn't make a league.

    well, sport in europe is not historically considered as a business venture the way it has been in the states ever since the cincinatti redlegs. sports are sanctioned by domestic federations and a european union of same; there were and still are very good reasons for that. look at the maelstrom that surrounded the G14, which eventually shut down.

    the UEFA cup is becoming the european topflight competition that's needed, but slowly, the way europeans buy a house, with 30% down and a fixed rate mortgage. you can't dance faster than the music, and when ralph says, "norton, we're gonna be millionnaires!", we're allowed to have our doubts.

    the fact i'm an OL fan probably makes it look like i bear a hostility that really isn't there. i would really like the WPS to do well. i have a pipe dream of les filles making a US tour beside the men for a few friendlies; it was in the back of JMA's head since last summer but certainly not now.
     
  19. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've been following this discussion with interest. I wonder if there's a problem with trying to draw parallels between the men's game and the women's game. Maybe their developmental paths are going to be different. It seems like in the long term, it would be good to have international coordination, but to some extent that could mean different countries having to adjust their developmental models. That could be difficult when different countries have different mind-sets and "beginner to pro" paths to start out with.

    In the back of my mind, I've been relating this to something that made a bunch of US soccer fans unhappy this year. I think it's fair to say that the biggest single mid- to high-level developmental program for women's soccer/futbol in the world is NCAA women's soccer. Yet FIFA scheduled the U20 Women's World Cup this year to coincide with the NCAA women's tournament(s). Would a truly systematic, coordinated international women's program do that? There might be reasons for doing it, but they'd be a very hard sell in the US. These are the kinds of questions that a unified international program would have to address. I can see non-US fans saying, "Why should the FIFA schedule have to adjust to US women's college soccer?" A similar question from a different point of view would be, "Why should US women's professional soccer adjust to other nations' schedules and approaches?" My point is that there are lots of hard questions out there, not that there's a necessarily "correct" answer to any question. I've seen very little discussion about questions like these. Maybe it's too early in the evolution of the women's game to be thinking about this? Or, maybe it isn't?
     
  20. Cville K C

    Cville K C Member

    Nov 3, 2008
    Collinsville, IL
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would tend to agree. I certainly don't pretend to know what the answer is, but if the WPS played their schedule in December, January, and February, it would be league suicide. Some fans would show up, but not many. You would have constant cancellations because of weather with all of the midwest and eastern teams. To have a fall/winter or winter/spring league in the United States would not be good for the league, nor would it be good for soccer as a whole.

    I do believe that the WPS should be mindful of FIFA and other leagues when making decisions. But one thing I think will be different in the WPS will be that the competition will be very good. I don't think you're going to see a lot of 5-0 blowouts. I think there is way too much of that in many of the European leagues. Even in men's leagues, it is usually the same three or four teams in each country that dominate year after year. I would much rather see a competitive league with close games.

    There probably does need to be some kind of summit meeting to discuss how to make this work for everyone. It will be another 2 years until the next women's World Cup. Now is a good dime to discuss things like scheduling, player movement, etc. and plan for 2011, so there will not be total disarray when the next World Cup comes around. The ultimate aim should be to make the women's sport grow in popularity and stature.
     
  21. vandey01

    vandey01 New Member

    Jan 20, 2009
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Interesting - and good point. What type of developmental path might you predict for the women's game vs. the men's game? I wrote a post a while back on my personal blog called, "The forgotten history of women's soccer." May offer an interesting supplement if you're interested... do you know of any post re: the evolution of men's soccer?

    I don't think it's too early at all.
     
  22. Smulan

    Smulan Member

    Apr 3, 2008
    "Why should US women's professional soccer adjust"? Because the US Soccer Federation is a member of FIFA and has committed itself to following FIFA rules and regulations. A press release on the WPS website even states re. the league's Division 1 status, that "the Federation will supply oversight to guarantee that the league follows FIFA regulations and complies with all U.S. Soccer rules" (own italics).

    Even European leagues have their scheduling impacted by international competitions, so I find it hard to envision that FIFA would change the scheduling of e.g. the World Cup at any level out of special consideration for either US college competitions or the WPS.
     
  23. Cville K C

    Cville K C Member

    Nov 3, 2008
    Collinsville, IL
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    IMO, the purpose of FIFA should be to serve it's members and leagues, not the opposite. Yes, the governing body needs to set rules. There is no doubt about that. But I mean really, does anybody think playing soccer in Boston or Chicago in December or January is a good idea, just because that's when Europe plays it's schedule?

    Again, I think it ultimately comes down to what helps grow the women's game. They need to raise the talent level so there are better players on the pro/club level. That I think is happening as more and more countries improve on the national level. They need to make it more competitive. Right now, that is one area that doesn't appear to be improving. They need to do things that will help establish a fanbase. I am hoping that is what the WPS will help do in the US.

    I think the conflict between the U-20 World Cup and the NCAA Championships was unusual in that the World Cup was held in the southern hemisphere, so it is not likely to impact American college soccer very often.
     
  24. Smulan

    Smulan Member

    Apr 3, 2008
    Actually, I think you'll find on closer inspection that Europe is not a fully coherent entity in terms of football seasons. The Swedish league, for instance, starts in late March/early April and finishes in October, whereas the German league has a season that is split into two with a break over November to February. Also, there are leagues other than the European ones to be taken into consideration, e.g. the newly-started Australian W-League which runs over the (Northern Hemisphere) Winter.

    FIFA should indeed serve the needs of its members, of which the US is one. Do you have any suggestions as to how FIFA can do that in scheduling terms, aside from simply prioritising the US? Because I'm sure they'd be glad to hear from you.
     
  25. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    i'm wandering off topic here, but in a way that responds to some recent comments...

    The way FIFA, or on continental levels UEFA, CAF or CONCACAF serve the federations is... by being the boss! all the feds agree to follow rules and schedules they set up. for example, certain weekends during the season are set aside for international matches either official or friendly, and the national leagues empty those dates. can you imagine the fire drill it would be the other way around?

    on a national level the feds sanction everything, to the point that some make the mistake of thinking they're government agencies! a U-10 player in france or holland has a license issued by the FFF or the KNVB... the same document as a pro player.

    pro sport in the US is indeed a different model. it is and always has been a business. each league is a system unto itself, and when a new one (AL, AFL, ABA, WHA etc. etc.) shows up there is conflict and sometimes an eventual merger. even on younger levels you see babe ruth competing with pony, USYSA vs. AYSO, NCAA vs. NAIA... the very idea of an all powerful governing body is foreign to the american mindset. that's OK for baseball or football, but soccer as the WORLD game may need different treatment.

    btw, those summit meetings are more than just "needed"... they're held. often. perhaps monthly. who wants to bet the people who organize the WPS and the NCAA never attended a single one of them?

    indeed, european leagues all have different schedules. russia and sweden have to avoid their winters more than chicago does. germany likes to take a big break at christmas, france less so, whereas england tends to fill their calendar up chockablock then. but everyone recognizes the primacy of UEFA and FIFA scheduling.

    europe in general has the advantage of soccer being the major sport in a way the NFL can only dream of. the season in france goes from august to may! that makes it easier to work around international dates, have a winter break to avoid the worst weather... the U-20 WC in chile disrupted our seasons but that was accepted, and to some extent remedied. did the NCAA even consider moving their tournament a smidge? it was only two weeks!

    the coupe d'afrique des nations is every two years, and because it can get so blistering hot in africa in summer, it's held during our pro seasons, but the clubs know they have to let their african players go and with few exceptions do so without complaint. it's sometimes suggested they should play in summer but everyone accepts that it's africa's decision, not europe's.
     

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