Lower the Number of International Slots in MLS

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by adam tash, May 9, 2018.

  1. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't forget the Cotonou Agreement. While not all European leagues consider themselves bound by it, some leagues, including Spain and France, treat players from Cotonou Agreement nations as domestic players. That means players from most African nations, along with much of the Caribbean and Oceania, count as domestic players in Spain, France, and several other European nations.

    Many EU countries also have bilateral labor agreements with non-EU countries. For example, Spain has agreements with Russia and Turkey, Greece has agreements with several North African nations and non-EU Balkan nations, and so on.

    So Spain's low non-EU limit is highly deceptive, between the large number of countries that count as domestic and Spain's extremely liberal naturalization laws.

    * EU member nations, Cotonou Agreement signatories, Russia, and Turkey all count as domestic.
    * Anyone from a Spanish-speaking country can get Spanish citizenship after two years in Spain.
    * Anyone else can get Spanish citizenship after five years.


    Oh, and as for shooting down individual examples of players that supposedly show the trends: if literally every example that's been given turns out to be false or deceptive, which is exactly the case so far, then there's no trend!
     
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  2. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also, ask Laurent Ciman how much more of a choice foreigners have than American players.
     
  3. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't believe that. Do you have a source? The rules in France and Spain specifically refer to EU and non-EU players. The Cotonou players may be able to live in France or Spain but they are not counted as EU players as far as I know. But you may know more than I.
     
  4. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're moving the goal posts again to suit your opinion. Google is your friend btw...........
     
  5. Initial B

    Initial B Member

    Jan 29, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa Fury
    Um, both France and Spain are larger than Germany... :whistling:

    But based on the fact that the US crashed out of this WC cycle, perhaps they need to lower the number of international slots?
     
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  6. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So is Sweden.

    Germany is the largest country in the EU by population though.
     
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  7. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My understanding is that the Cotonou Agreement prohibits employment discrimination against citizens of signatory nations, provided that the employees or prospective employees are already legally present in the country. Governments have not applied it to non-EU quotas in football, but several FAs or leagues have voluntarily adjusted their rules to exempt Cotonou Agreement nationals from quotas.

    Here's what Calciomercato says about major European leagues: Spain, Germany, and France apply the Cotonou Agreement to non-EU player limits.

    https://www.calciomercato.com/en/ne...i-cotonou-e-tanti-campioni-non-vengono-512864

    There's also a ruling from the Danish FA that applies the Cotonou Agreement to non-EU limits in Denmark:

    https://www.kaburakis.com/index.php...ou-agreement-application-in-eu-sport-labor-dk
     
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  8. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks, I wasn't aware. When are they going to start work on the human rights piece?
     
  9. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Exactly. As a knee-jerk reaction, lowering the number of international slots can sound like a good idea if the goal is raising the level of a national team. The problem with knees, though, is that they don't understand that there is quite a bit of data on this _ and it all points in a different direction. Insularity weakens professional leagues, and that weakens national teams. Insularity only provides more opportunity for mediocrity, which is boring to watch and doesn't help a national team, at all.
     
  10. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    https://abc30.com/sports/galaxy-teenager-alvarez-dominating-training---ibra/5388287/

    Interesting quotes from Zlatan (he might make a great USMNT coach someday, imo)

    says Alvarez is DOMINATING in training (but barely plays).....hmmmm......

    Won't be happy to loze this player to Mexico...but very interesting dynamic going on here....a star - the biggest star in MLS - sticking his neck out to help a young player who isn't getting the playing time he needs - and apparently deserves - in MLS....

    How many other "Alvarez'" are out there on other teams without a Zlatan to stick up for them????
     
  11. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nice job cherry-picking the article to support your point. You left out this part of it:

    In other words this is an example of a kid being signed and working his way into the first team WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU'VE BEEN DEMANDING!
     
  12. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    he played great in the first game of the season and hasn't played since....

    if you think that is an example of what shuld be happening that is the problem.
     
  13. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    not cherry picking...merely citing.
     
  14. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    People have been following Alvarez for a long time and it was always their intention to bring him to the senior team (although disruptions like going to the U-17's didn't help)

    My takeaway from the story is the other reason it's important to have a Zlatan on your team. It's always been the case that Alvarez needed to lose weight. But when Zlatan tells you to lose weight, you lose weight.
     
  15. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    to me ....it is clear that not many people in the sport of soccer feel free enough to be honest in public. Zlatan is guy that transcends the sport...and his livelihood will not be affected by anything he says. so...he can just say what he thinks.

    Unlike 99.9% of the MLS players......

    you can focus on alvarez being overweight or on alvarez as a player.....

    my focus is on the idea that there is a player who is dominating in training but not playing in the games....and I wonder how many other similar situations are occruing in MLS....the only reason we know about this one is that there is a megastar on that team who isn't scared of speaking out....

    whereas...a player on RSL...the striker got lambasted by petke for saying he wants the ball.....

    when players aren't playing a big reason people always give is that they aren't impressing the coaches in training.......well that theory is hollow.

    there are plenty of players who are "good enough" that do not play.
     
  16. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I don't think that's an interpretation that any Galaxy fan would have. Everybody has known about Alvarez for a long time. Schelotto at the start of the season talked about their plans to gradually bring him into the first team, working around the U-17 world cup. He came off the bench at the start of the season, went to the U-17 world cup, and now is starting since several spots have opened up. Zlatan calling him "dominating" is just Zlatan being Zlatan. You're taking it far too seriously.

    But here's the problem. His competition to play is Romain Alessandrini, who is a very good DP and when healthy, makes things happen (although now he's hurt). His other competition is Uriel Antuna who is a 21-year-old who was with Mexico for the gold cup. The Mexican national team coach, who knows both players, thinks Antuna is better than Alvarez right now (although they have different skill sets, and in some ways, I like Alvarez)

    So if your point is that it's hard for domestic youth attackers to start, I'll agree. If your point is that there are these players who are impressing in training but the coaches still won't play them, Alvarez and the Galaxy are bad examples. For that matter, they are playing Julian Araujo, who is young and had very little time with the Galaxy, simply because he is better than the alternatives. The next player on the list would be Hilliard-Arce who can't beat out Daniel Steres or Dave Romney, who are are average MLS players at best.

    Zlatan talking the kid up is good; the more confidence he has, the better. But he's not some talent going unappreciated by the Galaxy coaches.
     
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  17. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    I agree with what Zlatan has said and is saying over the past few articles. I know he can be extra...but I don't think he is being hyperbolic here.

    when you think about it...almost all of the money MLS spends on foreign players is on attackers...and they aint spending the limited money they do spend on players to be on the bench.

    it is proportionally harder for young domestics to play in MLS than it needs to be. harder than it is at other positions.

    Zlatan said in another aricle that if you arent plaiyng in MLS by 17 you will have a hard time ever making to Europe, I agree with the sentiment...even though it is not strictly true. it needs to be easier for these types of players to play in MLS. its harder for these types to play in MLS than it is for them to play in germany, france etc....which doesnt add up.

    you can say that the coaches "plan to play him" but it seems he is only even getting any chance at all because of injuries.....

    I think the pecking order for playing time is rigid and not determined by what happens in training in many MLS teams but is largely determined by salary. clubs have to protect the investments they make in higher priced players.
     
  18. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The next time Zlatan isn't hyperbolic will be the first time

    You make this claim over and over, yet never bring any evidence to back it up, and you ignore multiple posters posting examples of the contrary.
     
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  19. AlbertCamus

    AlbertCamus Member+

    Colorado Rapids
    Sep 2, 2005
    Colorado, USA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    I'm not sure I get this. But no, the national team is not my priority. So if a rule change makes the league less entertaining, or my team (the Rapids) worse, or is unfair to players, then I am not for it. Nonetheless, I do think a better league lifts the game in this country, and thus, in the long run, will help the national team. But it is not a direct path.
     
  20. FtCollins

    FtCollins Member

    SSC Napoli
    United States
    Aug 24, 2019
    Colorado
    100%.

    The league should be more concerned with placing quality on the pitch than improving the the national program.
     
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  21. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just throwing another reply in this thread because I noticed it would be the 55,000th post in the forum :D
     
  22. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    # of slots doesnt equal quality. lower slots could still be higher quality league...

    imagine 5 uncapped DP slots but only 5 intl slots per team.....

    that could theoretically be better than what is now....( i think it would be) PLUS it would also mean more domestics minutes to go around.

    beyond that....the 7th or 8th best INTL players on any given MLS roster have a marginal AT BEST impact on quality/entertainment of games and often times no impact at all in terms of those factors, imo....vis a vis....the domestic comp for those minutes/slots.....
     
  23. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Alvarez has twice as much time on the field as 17 year old that Messi got. Twice the amount of time that 17 year old Henry got. Twice as much time as Schweini got (in the regionalia, no less) at 17.
    Now, the list goes on for a long, long time, but those are standouts from Argentina, France and Germany. All places highly regarded for developing great players. True, Messi was at Barca, but he is Messi.
    Great players are often, and usually, developed without being thrown into a starting 11 at 17. Getting some time at that age is a good thing, but it's a bonus. What they need is to develop strength and an understanding of what it means to be a pro. That is training ground stuff, not game stuff.
    There are exceptions who play a lot at 17, Rooney springs to mind. Pulisic got a lot of playing time at 17.
    But Adu was a regular starter at 16, and by 17 had started to fall apart.
    The folks running these clubs know so much more about these players and what is in their best interests than we possibly can. At SKC, Peter Vermes puts together individual plans, with physical and mental goals.
    Taking kids and throwing them onto the field is often far more destructive than constructive for a young player. It isn't the norm, anywhere.
     
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  24. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    okay well he didn't say starting every minute....alvarez is barely playing for LAG....his performance merits more time than he has gotten....

    its funny Messi was playing at Barca at 17 and alvarez is barely playing @ LAG....

    its not about 1 player...its also about 18 - 24 year olds too.....

    besides, I don't care what MLS does with mexican youth players anyway......lowering intl slots would be to help USMNT
     
  25. FtCollins

    FtCollins Member

    SSC Napoli
    United States
    Aug 24, 2019
    Colorado
    It 100% does when there is a greater chance you are going to find higher talent outside of the United States.
     
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