Lower the Number of International Slots in MLS

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by adam tash, May 9, 2018.

  1. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Over how many years?
     
  2. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How many players developed in MLS academies are playing in Europe? 9/22 in the last MNT squad.
     
  3. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    (I should have excluded Weah).
     
  4. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    #279 adam tash, Aug 24, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
    okay....the HUGE DIFFERENCE between a player like james rodriguez and mahrez is that they CHOSE their situations. they walked into those teams with their eyes open and made that decision with full knowledge of what they were signing up for. (not to mention the insanely high amounts of money they were receiving to watch their careers basically stall out...whereas in MLS players do so for peanuts)

    In MLS....players sign with the LEAGUE....they dont get to decide what situation and terms suit them (unless they are a foreigner THEN they have choices!!). for unproven domestics, they either take the offer and become an MLS player on whichever mls team MLS tells me to play for or they dont become an MLS player. period.

    THAT"S what i'm getting at!

    if James wnats to play for (or not play) for real madrid he can or cant....but he can also decide to play for any other team in la liga or bundesliga etc....

    In MLS....especially if you are unproven...it is LUCK OF THE DRAW! even before you agree to beccome an MLS player you are already property of an MLS team....

    Since you yourself invoked HOW PRO SOCCER WORKS EVERYWHERE...i think you can acknowledge that MLS' manner of onboarding new amatuer players is 100% unique to the world of soccer.

    What does MLS lose if they let amatuer domestics choose their situation???

    really think about it.....


    all they lose is leverage over those players i.e. salary and rights.

    (personally i'm not willing to sacrifice the development of us soccer players so MLS teams can shave $ off young players' salaries...i dont think it is worth it)

    what would those players gain?

    IMO A LOT!

    if amatuer, HG and college players could pick and choose their teams...I would totally be on board with them not getting playing time and wallowing on the bench.....

    If they chose to sign with a team that has stars at their position...that is on them.

    but what is happening now...is random and inefficient....and happening without the CONSENT of players (and dont give me the CBA BS.....MLS has the power in this relationship!)

    what would really change about MLS if a player like EPB was allowed to not sign with his "homegrown" team - SKC - b/c they have 2 stud CB's in front of him???

    MLS would be better!!! not worse...

    domestic talent in MLS would be better distributed!!!

    and the young americans in MLS would develop better (at least in theory b/c they would be more likely to be on teams in which they would actaully play! and that have a track record and history of developing players)

    what i have beef with is why MLS is preventing this.

    they dont want these types of players to have leverage and higher salaries.

    they are willing to sacrifice development of these players to limit their rights and development.

    no other league in the world does that.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    bottomline MLS is inefficient with its usage of domestic talent. imo, unnecessarily so.

    yes...most leagues waste talent...and rich leagues waste a ridiculous amount of talent...but MLS sint forced to waste talent b/c bigger leagues do.

    if adjusting the # of foreign slots to get more domestic talent on the field is too much ....then perhaps giving players freedom to self-determine their situations is the answer.

    ---------------------------------------------

    PS PLENTY of leagues in the world place restrictions of the # of non-domestics allowed on each team. The motivation behind this is generally protecting domestic players/talent.

    So to invoke "how pro soccer works everywhere" to repudiate the idea of lowering the # of intl slots...is disingenuous at best.

    Greece : 5 foreign per team
    Spain only 3 non eu per matchday roster
    France: only 5 non-ec players per team etc
    China: 3 foreigners per roster
    Russia: 7 foreign player limit per starting lineup
    turkey: 5 foreigners


    etc etc.....

    MLS' # of 8...is RANDOM and ARBITRARY and can be EASILY adjusted to better protect and develop domestic talent.

    Maybe someday when the us is winning world cups...there will be no need for a intl limit in MLS b/c american talent will be supreme...but until then...not protecting US talent in the us domestic league...only hinders the growth of the sport in the country and in turn hurts MLS, too.
     
  5. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Two fundamental problems with your case are seen in these two notions. The first problem is that what you are or are not willing to sacrifice is meaningless. We generally expect that if you're going to make a case, you make the case and back it up with research. Your personal preference with nothing backing it up beyond other preferences isn't doing the job of making your case.
    Second, Greece, Spain, France, by law, all treat players from EU and EC nations as domestic. This isn't a football rule, it's a labor law. So your point about youth development for national teams doesn't make sense in that regard.
    You are, however, left with Turkey, Russia and China in your case.
    So I ask: How have these rules improved the national teams of these nations? How have the youth players of these nations benefited from these restrictions? The reasoning behind the restrictions in China are political, not football related.
    Russia, at this point in time, is no better than they've traditionally been. they had a decent cup run, but wildly inconsistent and their best young players tend to leave to play elsewhere, don't they?
    Does Turkey provide an example worth emulating (and their best young players tend to play elsewhere as well)?
    Also, MLS does have an international player limit. It's 8 per team, though those slots are tradeable.
     
  6. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Please give REAL examples where MLS determined what team a player was going to play for in the past 8 years.
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  7. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Does Jermaine Jones count? :D
     
  8. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He said YOUNG players.............

    Plus Jones didn't WANT to play in Chicago..........at least that's what everyone outside of Chicago fans say anyways.....
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  9. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    wow u r a piece of work.

    i cant tell but i think you know how obtuse you are being...and for some unknown reason just must enjoy the act of obfuscation.

    every time i make a long detailed post - without fail - you hone in on the most insignificant or irrelevant details therein. ...and seem to systematically ignore the substance (especially when it is pertinent!)......

    i made a very logical and clear argument - with examples.....(i also tended not to use examples of players b/c every time i do obfuscators/trolls such as you try to pick apart the specifics so as to ignore the broader trend whatever player(s) in question are indicative of - and the reason such players' situations are cited in the first place. instead of turn an argument about broad trends into a petty squabble about a single players' worth or validity...i'd rather just avoid that and focus on the macro - which i did.)

    all that said -

    okay....what i am willing to sacrifice is indeed meaningless....but i was speaking in the general sense i.e. as the "don"...as the steward of us soccer....as an mls commissioner should be, in my humble opinion - not from a place of my personal opinions as a keyboard warrior. in that case, i think it is relevant to discuss what the focus of the entirety of us soccer/mls should or should not be willing to "sacrifice".....

    REGARDLESS......


    if you look at the countries i listed ....ALL have foreign limits that are LESS than MLS. there is nothing about the labor laws of any of those countries that specify the NUMBER of foreigners allowed in those countries soccer leagues! it's not about whether the EU countries count eu players as domestics! that is not the point!!! ALL countries listed draw a line between who counts as domestic and who doesnt! so if spain counts a german as a domestic...guess what? my point still stands!!! cuz they count africans and south americans and asians and north americans as FOREIGNERS SUBJECT TO THE LIMITS!!!!

    the NUMBER of slots VARIES greatly and there is nothing about US LABOR LAW THAT SAYS THERE MUST BE 8 in MLS!

    i never said mls doesnt have a limit! where are you getting that? what are you smoking!?

    I used the examples of other countries to show that 1) MANY other (in some cases VERY SUCCESSFUL spain, france etc) countries place STRICTER limits than MLS does on foreigners - (thus the relative success of countries with limits is irrelevant) and 2) the NUMBER itself of 8 is ARBITRARY MLS. it could be 5 . it could be 3. it could be 6. it could be 0. if it can be 8, it can be any number, including 7 ...which would mean ~20 something more americans starting in MLS on a weekly basis.

    EDIT: i really am starting to question the sanity of responding to you at this point!!!
     
  10. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    are you being facetious?

    every draft pick?

    every homegrown?

    how many more do you need????!
     
  11. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Really? So you are saying MLS teams should NOT be able to sign players developed in their academies?

    Again............you don't give ANY specific examples, just vague blanket statements lacking in details. Your long form rants are just that....a rant. It was not well formed, it completely lacked substance as well. It was, however, completely your opinion based on views of MLS from the early aughts.

    These tactics might fly in the US National teams threads................they largely don't fly in the MLS section of BS.
     
  12. RedRover

    RedRover BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 15, 2007
    You know, if stupid were a renewable energy source, you'd power the entire country infinitely. Nobody who cares about MLS gives a turd about what you think needs to be done to improve it, or remold it into your image. You're just an ignorant troll looking for attention. You'd be better off getting people to see you eat a bucket of worms.
     
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  13. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    *Thread*
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    no.

    lol...just that academy/HG players shouldnt be obligated to sign with the MLS team closest to their hometown.

    I dont think MLS clubs should have rights to players who havent even agreed to join MLS yet and have yet to sign MLS contracts.

    if mls academy players were allowed to sign with any mls team...i think mls would be better, player development would be better and less players would slip through the cracks.

    it doesnt even have to only be academy players...it can be any amateur.....non-mls clubs produce a lot of talent too...but under current rules MLS thinks they own those players rights too a priori.
     
  15. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If an academy player feels like it would be oppressive to have to sign with the parent club, he doesn’t have to join the academy in the first place.

    But a team that’s sunk time, money and coaching resources into training a kid to be a professional, they should get to sign him. Otherwise, you might as well tell every team in the league, “don’t bother putting money into a serious academy system, because any decent player you produce will sign with Atlanta or LA.”

    Now go back to explaining what this has to do with international slots.
     
    mschofield repped this.
  16. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    First, your posts are not detailed. they lack any sort of detail, and that's the problem that quite a few people on here are addressing. Stating your opinion many times does not turn it into a factual argument.
    On sacrafice, it's quite easy to spend other people's money. Were you to actually become the Don, a primary function would be to make MLS better (along with keep things running smoothly and handle problems, that's almost the entirety of the job).
    Clubs begin and fund academies through USL sides out of self interest. There is no amount of "Well they oughta" that will ever change this. So if you're making a case about the academy structure, it's pointless to ignore reality. Why would clubs invest in players to whom that have no rights, at all? Why would they indulge in a clearly one sided deal. the way it works, the club invests in the kids, and the team, when it gets lucky, gets a player that can help the senior team in some way. It works that way here, in Germany. Why would US clubs chose benevolence or practicality?
    That case is not a legitimate argument, it's a wish.
    As for your examples, I was pointing out that you can't use EU nations in those lists because they start from the point at which players from 28 (27 soon) nations are counted as domestic players. The players for 28 different national teams are domestic talent for French, German, Spanish, Greek, Dutch, etc clubs. the limits they set are for international players beyond EU borders. Unless they are part of the European Economic Community or have a former colonial relationship. When you list France, you're talking about a nation that in a pactical sense, has a limit on players from the Americas and Asia.
    French teams, and their national team does all right, consider the players from something like 40 other nations to be domestic.
    And, interesting point, they have rights to the kids they develop.
    On other points, the college draft is a US legacy and is becoming less important every year. You can get some support, and some detractors, on here discussing the merits of the draft, but there are existing threads for that.
    But you have chosen to focus on further restricting international players on MLS rosters. You have not shown a single advantage to MLS clubs of this. You haven't shown how in any way this would do what you wish it would do, improve the quality of the USMNT, or even just young US and Can players. You've been shown, repeatedly, that evidence argues against your case. You've been shown that commerce argues against your case. You've been shown that logic argues against your case.
    It's a weak case.
     
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  17. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Greek limit is now 4 foreign players per team which is totally illegal since they've signed the Schengen Agreement.
     
    mschofield repped this.
  18. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I had no idea they were doing this. On the other hand, I'm not really sure they are either. Just because I was kind of surprised by this, I checked the PAOK website. A very good Greek team, but not the only good Greek team, and looked at their current roster. Of 27 players, they list 17 as being international.
    Only seven of those are outside of the EU/EC. Three are Braziian, though, so maybe they used the Portuguese connection at some point. One is Egyptian, so nothing there. One is Ukrainian, one Argentine, one Swiss.
    The others are Spanish, Belgian, Portuguese, Dutch, English, Swedish, French, and Romanian.
     
  19. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    #294 adam tash, Aug 25, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2018
    the geographical size of us with its 50 states and eu with its ~40 states are roughly the same....

    so for the purposes of comparing EU leagues with MLS...i see no problem with counting EU countries' leagues domestic/foreign status rules and MLS' doemstic/foreign rules as similar.

    germany is roughly half the size of texas so them counting spanish and french etc as domestic....wouldnt be the same as mls counting costa ricans and mexicans as domestic.

    saying well france lets all eu countries count as domestic so mls should not limit foreigners in MLS doesnt equate.

    the "united states of europe" and "the united states of america" have the same policy on domestics....basically....but beyond that EU teams are usually more restrictive on foreigners than MLS is...with some big excpetions like germany.
     
  20. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Surprisingly to some, Texas is actually double the size of Germany, though with about a third of the population.
     
  21. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    well germany is also the biggest country in eu.

    so saying france counts spanish (for example) as domestic so MLS should be relaxed with its foreign limit makes no sense to me. these are all tiny countries compared to usa.

    for the purposes of comparing eu leagues policies to MLS' policies regarding foreign limits....eu status should be equivalent with us-domestic status.\

    So when spanish teams in La Liga can only have 3 non-eu players and MLS teams can have 8+....I cannot for the life of me understand the outrage at the idea of limiting that number in MLS.

    these numbers are random and arbitrary not sacrosanct.
     
  22. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  23. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The 28 nations of the European Union actually have 31 national teams competing in qualifying rounds of FIFA World Cups. If the US had 50 different national teams, one representing each state, that would make it comparable. But the US has one national team. Canadda also has one, so there's that. These national teams end up using the exact same sized rosters when they play. The US roster will have 24 players. The Danish roster will have 24 players.
    Your point has been that this is an essential move to improve the national team.
     
  24. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    512 million Europeans are counted as domestic, along with some visa holders in all 28 countries, though England and Denmark have a delay for new members. I'm not making any point just clarifying the scope.
     
  25. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    "In La Liga, players can claim citizenship from the nation their ancestors came from. If a player does not have European ancestry, he can claim Spanish citizenship after playing in Spain for five years."
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Liga

    Barcelona only has 9 Spanish nationals in the 26 man roster. Real Madrid has 13 out of 29. Atletico Madrid: 7 out of 24, etc.
     

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