Lohnt es sich? €40M für einen Hurensohn! The 15/6 Summer Transfer Thread

Not sure what team you were watching. Remember, we are the ones in the black and yellow kits. We did not play a 4-3-3.

 

Got it. So Kagawa is better than Ozil and James Rodriguez. We can end the conversation about Kagawa there. In your eyes he is one of the top three no. 10s in the world.

For me the club should be aiming for players that have world class talent. Weigl has it and from the first few games showed it. Players like that are hard to find. With Sahin to play 8 I would rather the club gamble on a world class talent than spend double that on the likes of Kampl and Castro.


eaglespark, Feb 19, 2016

I also agree that Castro is not championship material. Unless we get another Weigl type up front we have to spend big.

bvbSlash, Feb 19, 2016

Great win. Leverkusen is not an easy place to go. Ugly match, but it was good to rest a lot of players. This was a match that showed the importance of a 10 and 8. It also showed the importance of having quality on the bench. Reus coming on changed the game. Another clean sheet to boot as well.

eaglespark, Feb 21, 2016

Not a chance. Mkhitaryan has been significantly better this season. Significantly. That being said the team still needs a better 10 and Mkhitaryan despite being world class, worth the money was poor scouting on the boards part. It has turned out well due to luck. We wanted a 10 and got a world class 11/7. Again I have nothing but respect for Mkhitaryan for the strength to come back from a poor season and be this good. He has been incredible and played much, much better than Eriksen, who until recently was having a poor season.

The aim this summer should be signing a 10 and an 8 to replace Gundogan.

eaglespark, Feb 27, 2016

Great win in the end. This match shows how key having a world class 8 is. Gundogan came on and along with the red card it helped change the game.

Still this is precisely why we need a no 10 for games like this.

eaglespark, Feb 28, 2016

Impressed with the new Hoffenheim coach! The guy tactically outclassed Tuchel and deserved full 3 points out of this game. He played with a 3-man defense and had workhorses on wings who kept pressure on our fullbacks throughout the game, forcing them to make mistakes. Against this kind of defensive organisation, we needed a decent no.10 player at which Kagawa failed miserably. Without Hummels and Gundogan, we had no "key" vertical passes to trouble their centre-backs.
Dissapointed with Tuchel for not being able to figure out a way at half time. Fortunately, the red card changed things a lot and Hoffenheim decided to stop pressing. We did not deserve the 3 points and were quite lucky to win.

kbvb, Feb 29, 2016

 

It was 4141 with both Gundogan and Kagawa deployed in the central midfield similar to how Silva and KDB were deployed at City in the beginning. It was an upside down triangle midfield.

Check here.
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/969092/Live

 

As I said before and keep going on and on with post showing that we had the same problem last year and it was a big problem. We managed to win despite our huge flaw, because Hummels is arguably the best centre back in the world at passing, Reus is world class, and arguably Mkhitaryan was/is world class. Mkhitaryan was certainly having a world class season performance wise. For me he would have had to do it in the CL to confirm it, but that's a different topic.

Dembele has been great, but he is a kid and hit and miss. So basically we were playing this season without THREE world class players.

I would also argue that despite of all the problems we have faced, despite of the glaring weakness in midfield had Reus been fit from the start of the season there is a good chance we would have actually been top of the league at this point.

It's not certain, but replace Reus with the very similar Schurrle and there is a good chance he scores Schurrle's shot that hit the bar, giving the team the win against Leipzig. There's also a good chance he scores Schurrle's chance against Frankfurt giving the team the win. That small detail gives us 6 extra points, takes away 3 from Leipzig and we could be top. It still does not take away the problems we had in midfield.

 

I'll check the SZ heatmaps to confirm. Simply having one of Kags or Ilkay drop deeper to shuttle the ball does not turn a 4-1-4-1 into a 4-3-3 (not even close).

You completely lost me with the statement that Kagawa is better than James. Is that the reason Kags is struggling to get playing time with the National Team?

 

Well, it was just about you ranting with no substance in lot of your post about Castro.

Did you even know how we set up against Leverkusen? We had the likes of Ginter, Bender and Leitner in the midfield with neither Castro, Gundogan nor Kagawa. Yet you still kept ranting about Castro.

I don't even know why you were even ranting on feb 19 because Gundogan played in all the prior to that time except the inglostadt match of which we won, yet you still ranted.

The Hoffeiheim match was a game TT deemed fit that a midfield combo of 2 slow paced midfielders in the person of Weigl and Sahin. were good enough to combat Hoffeiheim. And even when, Kagawa dropped deep, he lacked little options around/in front of him because of the little movement around him. Gundogan coming in to replace Kagawa simply did what he does best, that is, get the ball and constantly drives forward with the ball to close the huge gap that was between the midfield and attack. Gundogan didn't even play as a central midfielder in the game but as a no 10. Yet instead of questioning TT selection, you kept on ranting about our midfield.

As for your Ozil and Kagawa comparism. Let me expand it to you so that you can understand me well enough. If I have an already well oiled functional team with a fantastic midfield and I wanted a no 10 as the final piece, maybe I would choose Ozil over Kagawa although Kagawa would likely brings in much more in the area of intensity, an attribute Pep doesn't undermine.

However if I don't have a functional team in place and I needed someone to make my talisman, I would always go for Kagawa. Anyone that watched the shambles that took place immediately after Sahin left for Madrid while his replacement, Gundogan looked out of sort in the central midfield in our early 2011/2012 season starts until Kagawa changed our misfortune after becoming the team's talisman around winter, would already know what I'm talking about except the newbies!

 

Let's me see Kagawa's heat map because as far I'm concerned Kagawa played in the central midfield. Both Gundogan and Kagawa knows their job well enough and took turns bombing forward. Even Gundogan often got into the final third than before.

But in the case of Gotze and Kagawa in the midfield in front of Weigl, one drops deep but the other looks clueless and leaves him isolated. Even Castro understands the midfield better than Gotze.

 

The heat maps tell a different story - clearly not a 4-3-3.

This is Shinji's heatmap

 

And Gundogan's?

 

The reason I used those past messages was to illustrate just how much we suffered last season when Gundogan did not play. You had written this.

Just like you, I don't even think we really missed Gundogan. As a matter of fact, Kagawa worked better with Castro than with Gundogan last season because although Castro may not be as technical as Gundogan, he's got better movement and awareness than Gundogan who prefers carrying the ball forward with his dribbling. Gundogan's vision is also far better than that of Castro but not really that exceptional.

I then posted a number of post showing that despite winning we really did miss Gundogan. The fluidity of the team collapsed and we were bailed out by the quality of other players. I am well aware of the Leverkusen. We just defended and hit the ball long, because we had no chance of passing through their press without Gundogan. It was a shocking game and we were very lucky to win.

I could go into each game in detail, but the point which you are ignoring is that our midfield did not function last season even though we were winning. I really can't be bothered, but no matter what the midfield combo, without Gundogan it suffered and that's why I kept crying out for his return.

I comprehended what you wrote about Kagawa. Kagawa for you is much better than James Rodriguez. You also said in everything, but top team Kagawa is better than Ozil. Only when both given top midfields would you MAYBE choose Ozil over Kagawa. It's quite clear you think Kagawa is the better player.

 

But the reality is Castro didn't play the boring games you kept ranting on. Even Gundogan played in one of these boring game, for example, the boring draw against Hertha berlin.

So the question is what exactly were you ranting on? Because as far I'm concerned we looked good, even better with both Castro and Kagawa in the midfield, after Gundogan's injury.

And yes, Kagawa is a better player than James! However, In comparism to Ozil, it's subjective and quite personal. It depends on which style you like.

 

Ozil is likely the best 10 in the world, and Lahm called him the most intelligent player he has ever played with (and Lahm has played with a few decent players throughout his career).

 

Well, Kagawa is more than a no 10. He's not just a no 10 but a playmaker! Show me any of Ozil's performance that looked exceptional in an under-performing midfield like the one Kagawa had against Liverpool in the Europa cup?

No one is even disputing Ozil status but just that Kagawa offers much more.

 

You are completely by yourself on this one..... I would struggle to find a single person on the planet that agrees with you. Please go find even one.......

 

Last season, Weigl was not on the same line as the other 2 midfielders, same as this season.

But last season, I feel the wingers (Mikhi and Reus) didn't have to track as much as the wingers do this season. Maybe I'm forgetting. But I can't figure out how we were so much better defensively than this season.

Last game one of Frankfurt's goal's exposed this clearly. That ball that was passed back from our back line on the ground to the player who was making a run into the box completely unmarked. Weigl was already marking someone else, and I think it was supposed to be Gotze who's supposed to track back all the way into our penalty area to cover that player. So Tuchel is asking Gotze to be present in our penalty area, in this circumstance! Seems like not a great idea.

I definitely remember both Castro and Kagawa making runs into the other team's penalty area, which resulted in goals. I just don't remember who was doing the defending

But the other point when we talk about Kagawa and Castro vs Gotze, is that the IMO the former 2 are much better at CREATING from a central midfield position than Gotze. Gotze will create from inside the box, or when on the run from the side. These are the situations I remember him contributing from, just like his assist vs Bayern.

Yet Castro and Kagawa lose their starting position to accommodate Gotze. I can understand that, but not if the aim is to compete for the championship. At some point the experiment has got to stop.

Hertha Berlin game this season: Tuchel started with Weigl, Rode and Gotze in MF. All the play was going through the wings. We concede and are put under pressure, so he brings in creativity in the midfield in Kagawa and Dembele. And suddenly we're playing much better football, because the ball actually makes it from the back to the front, because the MF is present, can control and can create. The goal setup is very similar to last season's goals, where we basically pass the ball into the goal: Dembele assist on the ground to Auba to tap it in.

I understand that you guys are all asking for a midfielder that can create from the 8 position. I don't oppose that. I'm just saying that with our current squad we can do much better than we're doing now.

 

Jesus christ, this is getting tiring. We all know that Kagawa is a polarizing player. Several people on here have a bias against him, both positively and negatively. And the discussions about him are just getting really annoying at this point. Arguing about his relative skills compared to other players not in our team are ridiculous and pointless. I think we can all agree on him being limited, in terms of individual skill. He will never be the star, he'll never be a Ballon d'or-candidate. He'll never take the spotlight and be the stand-out player of the team. And of course, his performances can be very inconsistent. We all know he needs the confidence to be at his best. However, he also has the tendency of being underappreciated, because his skillset and contributions can be very subtle, and he is in general very humble and unegoistic. But on his good days, he can be solely responsible for the attacking flow of the team and be the main creator of most of the chances created.

As per now, he has gotten little playing time, but when he's gotten the chance, they have mostly been underwhelming, (up until the Legia-game). Of course, it can be argued that he has been played in a too deep position, but it doesn't change the fact. Now, Tuchel did say he has been playing with pain in his ankle, and that might be the reason of the lack of playing time. Or he might not just be in Tuchels plans. Who knows, it's all speculation.

Personally I think he still has a role to play in the team. I get the point that we should focus on the youth (and Götze), but I still think he should be the preferred 10 when he is healthy. Götze has been underwhelming, and he shouødn't be gifted a spot just because of his name and potential. I also think Kagawas creativity and game intelligence is more needed in a team who lacks build-up play, than Götzes "closer to goal"-playstyle.

 

All in your deluded mind!

How many games has Kagawa played in his natural position this season in comparism to Gotze in his natural role?

And you saying Kagawa has never been star shows you must have been inside the sand in 2011/2012. Newbies feeling funky, better go acquaint yourself with Dortmund historical records..

 

I asked a question, didn't I?

Show me just 1 match.

 

You forgot the part where Kagawa played with Castro and the team consistently looked good and hardly lost any game except the last 2 games where TT was trying several of his tactics after Bayern already won the title.

It's like some people here are suffering from selective memory loss.

 

Maybe you should create a Kagawa thread like we once had the Gomez thread on the Bayern forum

 

@bvbSlash OK. This makes sense.. so if we ignore the names of formations, we basically have 3 central midfielders that are not on the same line (1 defensive midfielder, 1 "half-and-half" midfielder, and 1 attacking midfielder) plus 2 wingers. So in a way it's neither 4231 nor 433 nor 4141, because it's asymmetrical. That's why I think these numbers can be misleading because they don't tell the entire story.

So, one of the following is happening:
- Either Tuchel is asking the same defensive duties from both Castro and Gotze, which would require them to work their a** off all game, which isn't reasonable.
- Or, Castro is ignoring his defensive duties and just wandering up front
- Or, they're supposed to cover for each other, and Gotze doesn't do it because he's not used to these defensive duties
- Or.... it's not the central midfielders but the wingers who are supposed to track back.. that's probably not the case because I don't think they come in the center when they get back to defend

But in terms of offense, I think you're ignoring Castro's contributions last season. The fact that he was able to contribute from the midfield and create goals, playing alongside either Kagawa or Gundogan makes me think he can repeat it this season. He just needs to build chemistry with that second midfielder and the wingers. So if Reus is back as a winger and Kagawa stays in MF, then the only new player would be the right winger, and in that case we would have the same front 4 as last season, except for one.

And also in offense, this season we're building from the wings, more than from the center, which doesn't seem to be working...