I haven't checked, but heard we had 8 shots, 5 shots from Messi and 3 he created. Will have to double-check. He did fuk up the Alba cut back and did lose at least a couple of balls that resulted in dangerous counters.
Morning after. The only silver lining in this is that I have Alisson as my goalie in FIFA and he’ll get an upgrade. But man. Gutted. Gutted. GUTTED. GU-TTED. I was listening on some local LA/Orange County Spanish language AM radio station (AM 1020) understanding like 60% of what they were saying. I was mildly annoyed at the way he called the first goal with Origi. He said something like "No Firmino, No Salah, but they still scored!" As play evolved, and it seems like we settled, I felt a little better. There was even one play, the 4 vs. GK where I thought we scored. Only to look at ESPN later and see that we in fact did not. I listened till the conclusion of the 1st half. I was thinking...”75% there!” This being my lunch hour, 1 o clock-ish, I actually went out to get fresh air. Then when I had time to check back in for the 2nd half...at about 1:30 PM pacific standard time. all the worst fears came roaring back at me (and probably the rest of the Barca fan base). I first looked at the board to see reactions like “finally were waking up.” Then I saw all the nervous-ness. My stomach began to turn. And then lastly, on my phone I turned to ESPN and the Spanish radio station just in time to see the 3-0 scoreboard turn into 4-0 and the mildly annoying Spanish language announcer go "ggggoooooollllll...." That’s about the time I posted my lil “sell everyone, fire EV rant on this thread.” I've been a lifelong Chicago Bulls, Bears, Cubs fan, and I became a Barcelona supporter at about the time when this board used to call a certain Brazilian, Xonaldinho or something like that, so I've been used to slim tastes of success and plenty plenty plenty defeats, but I haven't ever felt that wind socked out of me quite like these last 2 Champions League Barcelona teams. The Chicago Bears were haunted all season by an inaccurate field goal kicker; their season came to an end because of a miss by their inaccurate field goal kicker. Barcelona was haunted all season by Dembele's little recurring injuries. The lack of this threat, or just any threat when Messi is not there or having a ho-hum game kind is critical. Also, his 3 misses in the home game have come to bite us hard. Again, I argued that EV putting him in at the 90th minute despite having him warm up since 73' made him still a little rusty. EV did the same thing against Roma; putting Dembele in a little too late to make an impact. Then again, I can't believe we allowed mother-freekin' Divock Origi and Gini Wjinaldum to become heroes. We had the rest. We were almost full strength. We have access to a lot of top players including two of their top attacking talents over the past 10 years and we couldn't get past them. I am not sure what to make of this other than I guess we need to find a better tactical manager than Ernesto Valverde. Let's hire Klopp?
I think with VAR this would have been called offsides anyways, but yes — what in the world was Alba thinking?!?!
I haven't read the last 9 pages of posts, so apologies if these have been shared already but a couple good reads, Graham Hunter on finding the dope(s): http://www.espn.com/soccer/uefa-cha...n-stunning-champions-league-loss-at-liverpool Jonathan Wilson on passing is not enough: https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...wer-barcelona-jurgen-klopp-passing-not-enough Sid Lowe on identity crisis: https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...rcelona-anfield-ernesto-valverde-lionel-messi quoting from the last one: But this failure suggests that there were flaws in that analysis, that seeing this in physical terms was mistaken, that the root cause was not found, that this may be more conceptual. Here the debate about Barcelona’s footballing identity is raised again, cutting to the core of their being; this is a club, some feel, that has lost its religion. And in times of pressure, when a team like Liverpool are thundering at you in all their fury, a clear identity, a defined model, offers refuge and security. Barcelona didn’t really have that shelter. When Messi announced that Barcelona wanted the European Cup publicly, in front of the fans, the pressure was raised. Asked how the other players reacted, Suárez said they reckoned that if he announced it, it was up to him to do it. He was joking, but watching them play sometimes it is tempting to conclude that that’s exactly how they think. Messi’s words were a vow, a promise, but on Tuesday he was unable to deliver on it. Nor was anyone else, but maybe they knew that already.
Whoa! That's old school! That was a joke on my part. A few of us were going on about how to properly pronounce Ronaldinho's name and I jokingly put up what, at the time, was listed on wikipedia as to how to pronounce his name... χonawˈdʒĩɲu. And I would occasionally use that when talking about him. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/can-lionel-messi-be-future-captain.612009/#post-13015876 (Note the thread I linked to. ) But that was way before 2018 which is your listed 'join date'. You must have lurked here quite a long time before finally deciding to join in. Unless you went by a different handle before (?)
Why didn't Messi scored the clear-cut chance set up by Alba? Yes Alba arguably shouldn't have passed that ball backwards, but when you have a player as clinical as Messi, it does make some sense that Alba - a defender at the end of the day - might opt to pass the bucket to Messi, who wasted a golden chance in a situation where he could've shot with either his left or his right; this would've killed the game off right then and there, and Messi let it slip by him. Furthermore, about less than 10 minutes later, a deflected ball luckily lands on Messi, it was a very good shooting angle, it was arguably fairly similar to the shooting angle that he tends to score from, and not only that, but the defenders were caught complete off-guard, which means that Messi could've easily dribbled as oppose to take the shot; but instead, it was an off-target shot, from an angle where Messi is known to hit the target with better accuracy than anyone ever? But the accuracy went missing there, quickly after having not released a shot when Alba set him up. At any rate, yeah it is probably dumb to blame Messi for 'choking' in a game where he wasn't even bad it seems (re-watching it with a clearer head), and especially after Messi's amazing display in the first leg, but still, I think it's difficult to deny that Messi was lucky enough to get 2 clear-cut chances in the first 30 minutes of the game, and he squandered both of those chances, VVD dispossessed him in what could've been Barca's 1-1 goal, and then an off-target shot in what again could've been Barca's 1-1 goal. Messi would rarely ever squander 2 chances like that in La Liga (against any team, difficulty is not a factor for him in La Liga), but in the Champions League it's difficult for me to continue to downplay how he doesn't punish the opponents when given the opportunities to do so, and not even against opponents as depleted, fatigued, and injured, as the Liverpool side that played that second leg. Moreover, this Barcelona team never really inspires any substantial confidence against the truly elite opponents, which means that I'm already fully expecting that Messi will need to score a goal and/or come up with a better assist (or assists) than the relatively easy passes (potential assists) that he dished out to either one of Suarez or Coutinho, and which ultimately means that Messi squandering clear-cut chances as he did is just uniquely painful to witness, because you just know that this Barca team will probably take said misses (by Messi of all players) as yet another excuse to further unravel, which was already happening before Messi squandered his clear-cut chances, but which was immediately magnified when it became worryingly obvious that Messi just didn't have his scoring boots on for this of all games; said mental collapse, as we now know, reaching its mediocre climax when the Barca players weren't even bothering with defending corner kicks at the end of the game. Anyways, I feel like a fuking asshole being this critical about Messi, but Messi did let it slip by him during the first 30 minutes of the game, and honestly, this is not the first time that this type of thing happens to Messi in the Champions League Semi Finals (or the Quarter Finals for that matter). On the other hand, if the VAR was always going to rule off what could've been Messi's 1-1 goal (the Alba back pass), then yeah, this alone would largely destroy my argument against Messi, which largely consists of him failing to even release a shot in clear-cut chances like that, which he then followed up with an off-target shot in the type of situation where he is known to hit the top corner of the posts.
LOL yeah I was lurking here under a different handle (which I sparingly used if at all) when χonawˈdʒĩɲu was on his way out. χonawˈdʒĩɲu and his highlight videos is kinda what drew me into the sport and Barca, initially. What I remember from those times were everyone getting annoyed at Ronnie's form and digging up stuff about his party life. I honestly couldn't understand it when I watched him on the pitch, he looked fine I thought (in those last few seasons before transferring to Milan). I'd probably see it differently nowadays. I was a little irritated by Bojan. He was either the golden boy of the board or of the team, I forgot, but I'm kinda sad now that I have re-read his stories about anxiety. I also thought Gio Dos Santos looked like a little kid and kind out of place. I got excited when we finally brought in Titi. I was sad when we sold Deco cause he's so damn good looking. I remember thinking of Eto'o as something like a solid player, but wasn't all that happy when we swapped him for Ibra. The biggest miss was that I didn't think Messi had superstardom in him at all, I was like what the heck is the hype with this kid. He also had that hat trick against Madrid, and I was like, "well we didn't win." I was even a little annoyed when they eventually gave χonawˈdʒĩɲu's #10 to Messi. HEHHHHH! I understood very little of the game because I didn't really grow up with it the way I did basketball, and I was kinda intimidated. I'd followed a bit more casually from '10-'14, tuning in to watch classicos and the off-season interntionals. I didn't really start following the sport like I do now and lurking this board till '16. I still understand very litte but my eff-giving has decreased substantially.
lead leader, players miss chances all the time. Those weren't even easy one lmao. No players has expectations like messi in history. Shit Pele was carried for a lot of his international career. Ronaldo doesn't generate half the chances messi does and misses plenty plenty of shots. No one blames him for choking when Juventus got kicked out or all those times he got bailed by his real Madrid teammates. Fact is Messi could have sat on the bench and you could legitimately say he did enough in the first leg along. Barcelona are a shit team. Wouldn't finish top 5 without him.
Oh fuk it, my comments against Messi are largely the result of an angry angry - FURIOUS - fan who cannot even begin to explain how professional players give away the 4-0 goal in such a pathetic heartless fashion. Messi being the only player (capable of scoring goals and/or assists) I respect of the bunch, was the first and most immediate target of my disappointment, which is not fair at all, but it is what it is. Quite clearly the epic fuk up clouded my better judgement, but even then, Messi was not good when you look past the BS statistics that some fans are actually using to rationalize this as a "good" performance by Messi... and all because he hit 3 easy to save shots on target, and also hit another 2 easy to make "assists" for the likes of Suarez and Coutnho, etc. It just wasn't a good game by Messi, and in a game where Messi had a pair of very good chances to convert at least one goal (assuming the Alba back-pass assist doesn't get ruled off by the VAR), and even if Messi and Vidal arguably were the best players - or the least disappointing players - for a Barcelona side that cannot be taken seriously anymore. But yeah, Barcelona is a shitshow... and yeah, Messi deserved so much better than this.
Lead leader, I am trying to get an angle which shows Alba was offside when he pulled back for Messi on that chance. But the commentators immediately were saying it would have been pulled back for offside with VAR. The other chance Messi missed was not clear cut, but he does score more often than not from there. Secondly, I have read some of your posts in the Beautiful Game forum, and I really like your posts over there in general. I just disagree with the notion that Messi is not mentally strong, or is a choker. I lived through all of Maradona’s career, saw him live week in week out — have seen multiple full games of Pele, Cruyff, Zico (who is really underrated, IMO), Platini, etc from the 70’s, 80’s to the present. There is absolutely no one who has played better soccer more consistently than Messi. It is to a point where if he plays an average match, it comes as a surprise. No one in the history of soccer has ever had that much expectation on them to deliver game in game out. Yesterday’s game would have been a A/B game for people like Zidane, yet it is a C game for Messi. Here is another one of Messi’s supposed “choke” jobs: If you compare this “choke” job with Maradona’s performance in the 1990 WC against Yugoslavia, or Napoli against Werder Bremen (just two examples off the top of my head), it really isn’t a choke job, is it? Zidane went through multiple seasons at Juventus where he barely did anything— multiple seasons where he was comfortably outshone by Del Piero — yet history remembers him as an all-time great and extremely clutch. There are probably at least 20 supposed “choke jobs” of Zidane for every 1 of Messi. If I had to guess, there are probably 3 “choke jobs” of Maradona for every 1 of Messi. By choke jobs I mean where they played average and below average to their own standards. CR7 has had at least 2 seasons where the RM fans complained that he is absolutely worthless outside of scoring. And I can honestly say I have watched at least 300 Maradona full games, and he was my all-time favorite player. Pele - I have probably watched 20 of his full games, so I cannot comment on his “choke” jobs — but if you just watch the 1970 World Cup final, you notice right off the bat how slow the game was and how much superior Brazil as a team was to everyone else. By the way, Pele should have been sent off in the 1970 World Cup semifinal because he clearly elbowed a Uruguayan player in the semi. He should never have played the 1970 WC Final under current rules.
Messi didn’t truly deserve this L at all and he didn’t really have a shite game either. Looks like bad luck hit him again and those fools who booed him at the airport are pathetic.
I don't think were a shitshow as much as we really don't have the tactics/defense/mentality for these high pressure knockout games. Can that improve with a different manager other than Valverde? I'd like to think so, but then we'd open up questions about winning league and copa. I think Messi gets at least one CL before calling it quits, though this one was an exceptionally tough one to swallow.
I have been watching Barca for the last 14/15 years regularly and think I have not missed more than a handful of games in this period ( not counting preseason friendlies). But this is the first time I feel like skipping the remaining fixtures from this season. This loss is too hard to take as we were so close to another final. I hope to see a clear-out like in 2009 but maybe it is too big a ask. I hope that Suárez, Rakitic, Coutinho, Malcolm, Rafinha, Prince and EV are seen at another club next season.
I thought most Barca players had a solid first half. Exceptions being Alba and Roberto. But pretty much everyone was terrible in the second-half (Vidal probably the only exception). It was pretty evident Barca came out with the mentality of needing to protect a 2-goal lead rather than thinking they just need 1 goal to finish Liverpool off.
Player ratings according to Spanish newspaper, SPORT: Stegen: 3 Roberto: 3 Piqué: 3 "Far from his best." Lenglet: 3 Alba: 3 Busquets: 3 Vidal: 5 "One of Barcelona's best." Rakitić: 0 "Left huge holes in the midfield." Messi: 5 Suárez: 3 Coutinho: 0 "As if he wasn't there."
Alba and Suárez shouldn’t get more than 1. I would even give Suárez 0 as he was useless in pretty much everything, missed one great chance to score and was constantly showing his frustration towards his teammates (which I think actually gives the opponent more belief and less confidence to your own team) as if they are shit and he is Messi.
Looks more like a politically-driven set of ratings. Has some, but not much connection to what actually happened on the field. Just trying to throw players who are already less popular with fans under the bus, while being nice to the already-liked players. A wimpy article.