Live 8 & Dickens & why Live 8 won't make a damn bit of difference in Africa

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Karl K, Jul 3, 2005.

  1. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Yes, music fans and anti-G8 lefties/chronic self-loathers...Nial Fergusson has it nailed.

    The African project has lasted over a century now. So what's changed?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/...ixop.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=23165

    Ouch.

     
  2. DJPoopypants

    DJPoopypants New Member

    I've seen mutiple people, left/right, liberal/conservative criticise the efforts of Live8, and they have good points.

    One can easily say that the old LiveAid charityfest wasn't worth a damn if lots of the money was diverted elsewhere in Africa.

    But I perceived a different purpose here. The shows were free, and there was no Live8 album or integral charity involvement.

    The purpose seemed to be 2fold;

    a) pique the interest of the everyday people who spend more time listening to Bon Jovi than caring anything about Africa, and hope some of them...

    b) encourage the leaders of the western world to combine and do something systematic about it (debt relief and other ideas), because simple charity was shown to not work so good.

    I've heard people criticize modern science museums as stupid, because the focus is on playful interactive exhibits ("slide down a gaint esophagus!") instead of hard science ("the esophagus consists of thousands of specialized cells..."). You're kinda doing the same - and ignoring that the change to modern science exhibits is not to teach, but to reduce negative stereotypes and encourage future involvement from little rugrats.

    Who knows - maybe Snoop Dog will turn into a global spokesperson for good and idealism like Bono did. (shudders...)
     
  3. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

    Nov 16, 2003
    Dropped an L and added an S. Making him Swedish?
    "• Niall Ferguson is ... Professor of History at Harvard University"
    One could also read Kipling's "White Man's Burden":
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/Kipling.html

    Sadly, I agree with Prof. Ferguson's musings about the root cause of Africa's problem. External efforts to change Africa's politics and economy will have as likely success as external efforts to change its weather.
     
  4. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

    Nov 16, 2003
    As unimpressed with his interview as with Madonna's call-out, "Do you want to start a revolution?" Well, at least it wasn't lipsynched.
    (Frankly, I though a heard a lot of the crowd yell back, "No!")
     
  5. dfb547490

    dfb547490 New Member

    Feb 9, 2000
    The Heights
    I went to Live 8 yesterday. Between Will Smith doing the "Fresh Prince" song ("Innnnnn West Philadelphia, born and raised, on the playgroudn is where I spent most of my days...") the "E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES" chants that broke out between each performer, the long day of outdoor drinking, and the hundreds of crazies that were in attendance, I'd have to say it was a success.
     
  6. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A whole LOT of people said "NO!" from my man back/side-stage in London...like half the section right down front...Madonna's not leading anybody anywhere...hell, she's too busy fighting right-to-roam common law across her and Ritchie's estate...
     
  7. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Well, perhaps some artists are clueless, but I respect everybody who got involved in this project, and in particular the organizers. Their heart is in the right place. Maybe their solutions are a bit naive, maybe they are little more than the equivalent putting a bit of ice on a life-threatening wound, but it is a start and we as human beings all need to be aware of the problem.

    Obviously without the elimination of thuggish dictatorships, unjust systems based on cronnysm, and rampant corruption, and without the emergence of a free society with free trade and legitimate job creation, Africa will never come out of its crisis. But in the meantime, it is reasonably that we can at least do what we can through aid, as individuals and nations, to help some of the victims.
     
  8. Michael K.

    Michael K. Member

    Mar 3, 1999
    There or Thereabouts
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's good to see Karl K. showing his true stripes by agreeing with a piece that echoes the feelings of most hard-hard-lefty moonbats re: Live 8.
     
  9. afgrijselijkheid

    Dec 29, 2002
    mokum
    Club:
    AFC Ajax


    great... so mr. positive thinks leftistliberalmoonbat8 is a stupid waste - i suppose you feel that getting the message to billions of people is utterly pointless, i disagree - i guess it's easy to sit back and look down on the ones making a little bit of an honest effort, however partially misguided it may be
     
  10. verybdog

    verybdog New Member

    Jun 29, 2001
    Houyhnhnms
    Let's say the governments of this world have totally failed their own people when some crazy rock'n'roll punks are trying to rescue them - the hungry people. Not that there's anything wrong with it (the live 8).

    It's a world of corruption. No wonder people are starving to death.

    I often laughed when some events like "walk for the hunger" coming up in this country. LOL, like walking can really cure hunger. :rolleyes:
     
  11. Revolt

    Revolt Member+

    Jun 16, 1999
    Davis, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Karl, thanks for starting a hand-wringing thread. I second DJ's thoughts to a t.
     
  12. Hard Karl

    Hard Karl New Member

    Sep 3, 2002
    WB05 Compound
    so I can't dislike the concert and be against what the G8 is up to?

    damn, bummer.
     
  13. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Do "something systematic?"

    What the heck is THAT actually?

    Look, Bob Geldof is a good guy. Bono is a good guy.

    But in the end, the problems with Africa have to do with the fact there is

    1. Not enough democracy

    2. Not enough rule of law

    3. Not extensive enough free markets to allow people to improve their economic lot in life

    In the end, Bono and Geldof are just like Mrs. Jellybean or David Livingstone: they think they can write letters, or hold concerts, and the uncool white guys running the industrialized countries can forgive debt, subsidize medicines, and everything will turn out just alright.

    No, what works is what we are doing in Iraq; getting done those three main things I listed.

    But hey, you isolationist containment guys don't like that kind of stuff. You want concerts.

    Well, you got it. Congratulations.
     
  14. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    So to add to famine, AIDS, malaria, and general misery, you want to bomb Africa. Excellent idea!

    The problem in Africa a) is very obvious and b) cannot be solved unless Europe, the US, and the world trade organisations do away with trade tariffs and domestic agriculture subsidies. I for one can't see that happen, and I, much like other 'lefties', don't think Live 8 will do anything to help solve the situation. That said, at a time when idiots like you, Karl K, to whom compassion is an alien concept, rule the world, it is heart-warming to see that some people at least care.
     
  15. nicodemus

    nicodemus Member+

    Sep 3, 2001
    Cidade Mágica
    Club:
    PAOK Saloniki
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While I don't think Bob Geldoff is the answer, there needs to be some massive external effort to fix Africa's problems considering most of the problems have external meddlers as the cause.
     
  16. Matt Clark

    Matt Clark Member

    Dec 19, 1999
    Liverpool
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    It's a shame Karl's screeching inferiority complex causes him to attack even initiatives such as this just because it gives him another chance to rant against "lefties" on the internet.

    Niall Ferguson is partially right, of course. No amount of grandstanding in Hyde Park is going to solve Africa's endemic problems - anymore than vapid platitudes about the rule of law and free markets will solve them. People who advocate the standard blah blah from the western, right-wing capitalist perspective are every bit as disconnected from the real nature of the problem as someone who actually believes wearing a stupid wristband and going to see Annie Lennox in a London park will make a final and decisive difference (not that anyone actually does of course, that's just how Karl needs to view things in order to get himself through another long day).

    Socially, Africans are in many ways their own worst enemies. There is an endemic, automatic short-termism inherant in the tribally groomed and grounded composition of African society - and the social mentality of much of Africa's people; this leads to the sort of corruption, wasteful mismanagement and disregard for the impact of decisions made which condemns much of the continent to its currently habitual plight.

    Forgiving debt is an important part of helping bring a change in this essential problem about, however. That countries like Ghana spend more of their national income on debt repayments than they do on health care is a travesty. Equally, wasteful and punishing subsidies and protectionism within western markets - the preposterous CAP chief amongst them - must also go.

    In combination, these and other measures can begin to help feed more money into the national economies of these nations. This will, even once filtered through the corruption and inefficiency of the economic systems, stand some chance of providing the breathing room required for the emergence of a larger, stronger professional class of African - people who both want and are able to undertake the socio-economic and socio-cultural changes needed for Africa to start wiping its own arse.

    I find commentary such as that of Ferguson disappointing precisely because it contents itself with just regurgitating the smug, witless mantra of the smug, witless westerners who choose to view African problems through the prism of smug, witless western platitudes on economics and governance. The reality is far more complex than that and it is precisely because of that complexity that initiatives such as Live8 - if they achieve their aims - are a sound and constructive element within what may one day prove to be a solution of sorts for the problems Africa faces.

    For anyone who wants a more complete and sensible view of the issues at hand, The Economist has this week again laid down a journalistic marker no other publication I have seen tackle the matter has managed to match.
     
  17. Colm

    Colm Member

    Aug 17, 2004
    UK
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    At least people who supported live 8 project care about people who are less fortunate than themselfs, no it won't cure poverty but it will a lot of peoples lives better, Karl is just an idiot who thinks getting Iraq's oil is a better idea than trying to help people who are suffering in this world, well hope your proud of that Karl :rolleyes:

    as he says "1. Not enough democracy

    2. Not enough rule of law

    3. Not extensive enough free markets to allow people to improve their economic lot in life"
    Yeah we'll wait and see if the US goes around to other countries who need democacy and rule eh? oh yeah most of them won't have any oil to take :rolleyes:

    Shame on you
     
  18. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Bush has already rained on the parade big time in regard to your point b.

    Its difficult to reconcile the idea that a child dies every 3 seconds with the idea that american interests need to come first -whatever the spin

    fack off we're alright jack
     
  19. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Did anyone catch Jonathan Ross's comment to the effect that African's were people just like us in his live stint?

    very damning, in terms of matt c's analysis above i reckon.

    Guest: "I went to Africa and they weren't all just people with flies buzzing around their mouths"

    JR: "they are people just like us"

    Both: "that message needs to get out more"

    FFS - this is the bloody BBC for gawds sake!
     
  20. speedcake

    speedcake Member

    Dec 2, 1999
    Tampa
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Are you advocating we invade Africa, install a new U.S. backed regime in each and every country there (ok, maybe not each and every) and fight insurgencies from now until the end of time?

    How are you using the term isolationist here?

    Main Entry: iso·la·tion·ism
    Pronunciation: -sh&-"ni-z&m
    Function: noun
    : a policy of national isolation by abstention from alliances and other international political and economic relations


    Karl, I think a whole lot of people here might tend to agree with your sentiment. We might not agree with your solution, but that is why we debate.

    Once again though, it is your obsession with thrashing the left at every chance you get that causes absolutely no one in this forum to give a crap about your opinion.

    My question above was partly in jest, as I don't really think you would advocate military action in Africa. However, if you do then come on out and say it. Tell us why it would work, why it is necessary and why you are right. Don't just tell us it would, it is and that you are. Over again and over again and over again.
     
  21. TheOriginalLilJon

    TheOriginalLilJon New Member

    May 9, 2005
    Florida
    LOL @ saying Debt relief isn't making a difference.

    The problem is, African countries are actually still under control by Europeans. Just hidden from it by puppet, corrupt black men who steal money and don't properly distribute it. Other example, Jean-Bertrand Aristide in Haiti. African countries needs to start buying back foreign owned land and invest it in its own people. Start making products, build up new schools, encourage people to work. It sounds xenophobic, but to become a flourishing country, you have to start with yourself. African countries like Zimbabwe, Malawi, and Nigeria are starting to do this. And if you look at Nigeria, with its 128 million or so population, and HUGE supply of resources, it could become a world power. But we have to start ousting these corrupt leaders.
     
  22. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Think about that one kids.

    Yes, taking land away from white farmers is the first start to.....something or other. Good......plan. :confused:
     
  23. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    SIG!!!
     
  24. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re-read his post, and notice the word "other." I'm sure he meant another; anyway, his meaning was perfectly clear and sensible to me.
     
  25. Achtung

    Achtung Member

    Jul 19, 2002
    Chicago
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    54 countries in Africa x 800 soldier fatalities/year x 10 years or so per nation = ...

    Actually I'm not serious. We'd probably just invade the Islamic nations.
     

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