Lionel Messi vs Pelé goal contribution

For Messi it's goal per game or goal per minutes ?

 

519 goals +190 assists in 465 campeonato paulista matches:
1.53 regional league goals per match
0.41 regional league assist per match
Total:
1.52 regional league goals+assists per match

In the league it is 138 goals +69 assists in 238 matches:
0.87 league goals per match
0.29 league assists per match
Total:
0.87 league goals or assists per match

That is a unbelievable difference



Messi/Ronaldo for a 10 year stretch were 1gpg in the domestic league ,champions league And NT


Lionel Messi

2009/10-2019/20
10 seasons

La liga
384 goals+147 assists in 365 appearances:
1.05 league goals per match
0.40 league assists per match
Total:
1.45 domestic goals +assists per match for 10 years

Champions league
97 CL goals+26 assists in 108 matches
0.90 champions league goals per match
0.24 champions league assists per match
Total:
1.14 champions league goal or assist per match for 10 years

National team
2010-2020

57 goals+39 assists in 94 matches
:1.02 national team goals and assists per match for 10 years


Cristiano Ronaldo

2009/10 to 2019/10
Domestic
La liga+Serie A

353 league goals+96 assists in 345 league appearances
1.02 league goals per match
0.28 assists per match
Total:1.30 league goals+assists per match

Champions league
113 goals+ 30 assists in 117 appearances
0.97 champions league goals per match
0.26 champions league assists per match
Total:
1.20 champions league goals or assists per match for 10 years

National team
2010-2020
77 goals+23 assists in 96 NT matches
1.04 NT goals+ assists
10 years

Pele also scored 64 official goals for cosmos
You might aswell say he scored them in Macedonia or Madagascar
No way are they attached the sane weight as goals in a big 5 European league

 

No scorer in history arguably had the dominant platform to produce elite stats like Pele did in Santos

Pre Pele
1952 Santos averaged 2.2 gpg in the campeonato paulista
1953 Santos averaged 2.5 gpg in the campeonato paulista
1954 Santos averaged 2.69 gpg in the campeonato paulista
1955 Santos averaged 2.73 gpg in the campeonato paulista
1956 Santos averaged 2.68 gpg in the campeonato paulista

Over 5 consecutive seasons pre Pele Santos averaged 2.5 gpg

For some added perspective here are some of the highest scoring seasons by Manchester United under SAF

1998/99 treble winners
2.07 gpg in the PL

2006/07
2.18 gpg in the PL

2007/08 double winners
2.10 gpg in the PL

Here are some of the highest scoring bayern Munich seasons under pep guardiola

2013/14
2.76 gpg in the bundesliga

2014/15
2.34 gpg in the bundesliga

2015/16
2.35 GPG in the bundesliga

Here are some of the highest scoring PSG seasons where ibrahimovic 'statpadded'

2013/14
2.38 gpg in ligue 1

2015/16
2.68 gpg in ligue 1

Santos 1956 averaged 2.73 gpg in the campeonato paulista and Pele was 15 years old and not even a Pro player yet

Santos 1956 scored at a higher rate than even many seasons of Barcelona and Madrid with Messi and Ronaldo

Barcelona 2009/10
Avg 2.57 gpg in la liga

Barcelona 2010/11
Avg 2.5 gpg in la liga

Barcelona 2013/14
Avg 2.63 In la liga

Barcelona 2017/18
Avg 2.60 in la liga

Barcelona 2018/19
2.37 gpg in la liga

Same could be done for C.Ronaldo

Some clowns want to suggest Santos pre Pele was not a superteam within the context of Brazilian football

Its a joke





The cherry on the cake is this
Here are some of the highest scoring matches by Santos pre Pele

1954 highest scoring campeonato paulista match

Santos 9-0 XV de Jaú

1956 highest scoring campeonato paulista match
Santos 9-1 Ypiranga

1957 highest scoring campeonato paulista match
Santos 9-1 Atlético Linense

Pre Pele era Santos scored 9 goals in a single regional league match on 3 separate occasions in just 5 seasons
And there are many,many more matches with 5-6 goal margins

Santos pre Pele was scoring goals by the bucket load
And could even beat a legendary AC Milan without Pele even starring


Santos pre Pele was incontrovertibly within the context of Brazilian football a superteam and they were a superteam by any stretch of definition

Only Madrid,Barcelona,PSG,bayern Munich at their absolute best with Messi,Cristiano,Ibrahimovic,Neymar,Mbappe,Robben,lewandowski etc could score at a higher rate than Santos without Pele


That's how dominant they were
And this before we get into how many Brazilian NT players they fielded

 

Pelé teams goals (1717 in 661 matches, Santos), (233 in 91 matches, Brazil), (127 in 58 matches, Cosmos) so 2077 in 810 official matches according to The Playmakerstats, the Cosmos maches I collected. It is a fair guess and still lacking something like 7 matches, so you could say 2090 or 2100 if you want. It is not 100% accurate, but let's say 80+%.
In not one hypothesis it is 2769.

Your source you used to Maradona also said 329 or more assists to Pelé, year ago (maybe they are made up or not).

Minus the PK:
680 Non-PK Goals (more ~77 PK according to this site) + '329 assists' out of 2077 Team Goals (I'm missing 4 matches Cosmos matches), then by 'your minutes estimation' he would had generated ~ 1.335 goals per 90 minutes or 1.239 per 90 non-PK Goals or assists.... much difference for you data.

1009/2077 or 1086/2077 including PKs.

Cruyff
63075 minutes (86,8 per match), 412 non-PK goals, at least 348 assists + at least 56 caused penalties = 1.084 or 1.164 per 90.
760/1882 or 816/1882

Messi
69439 minutes (~81 per match), 608 Non-PK goals and 289 assists. = 1.162 per 90.
897/2051

_______________________________________________________________

Peak 10-years - League Format

1032 - @FCBarcelona have scored 1032 goals last decade in #LaLigaSantander, 357 of them scored by Lionel Messi. Wealth#AskOpta#AskOptaJosé#StayAtHome https://t.co/tBXIYdrVlQ pic.twitter.com/fMic4vmWAK

— OptaJose (@OptaJose) April 16, 2020

34.6%

Pelé in 60s scored 295 Goals in Campeonato Paulista. Santos in the 60s Paulista scored 839 (294 matches). 35.1%.

Pelé played 227 matches in the Campeonato Paulista of 294 possible matches. In those 227 matches Pelé played Santos scored 685 goals. 43% Goal involvement (not including assists), my guess would be he scored three times more than he assisted one goal, so I estimate 57+% direct goals involvement while Pelé was on pitch in the 60s Paulista League.

A unverified (and after erased) source in the Wiki Spanish had this number and proportion of goals and assists:
Pele for Santos: 201 Matches/255 Goals and 100 assist 1,76 G/A per match 1957-1961
Pele for Santos: 171 Matches/ 222 Goals and 78 Assists. 1,76 G/A per match 1962-1966
Pele for Santos: 144 Matches/107 Goals and 36 assist 0,99 G/A per match 1967-1970
So, basically 584 Goals, 214 assists in 516 matches.

My guess would be 3 Goals, 1 Assist, the proportion of this unverified source was 3 Goals, 1.1 assists so more or less equal. No much difference, could be more or less than that.

So the numbers are 295 goals, 98 assists in those 227 matches in the Campeonato Paulista, a ratio of 1.73 and a direct participation of 57,4% in Santos Goals while on the pitch.

Messi in La Liga (2009-2010 to 2018-2019), 364 Goals and 135 assists in 343 Matches. In those 343 matches Barcelona scored 955 Goals, a direct participation of 52,2% in Barcelona Goals while on the pitch, a ratio of 1.45.

Data from Campeonato Paulista (1960-1969)

226 Matches, 163 W (72% Win Percentage), 35 D, 28 L with Pelé (2.32 Points) 3.03 Goals for with Pelé, 1.22 Goals against. Pelé scored 1.30 Goals per match or 295 Goals.

68 Matches, 39 W (57% Win Percentage), 15 D, 14 L without Pelé (1.94 Points) 2.26 Goals for without Pelé, 1.22 Goals against.

Data from La Liga (2010/2011 to the 'incomplete' current season 2019/2020)

309 Matches, 232 W (75% Win Percentage), 53 D, 24 L with Messi (2.42 Points) 2.79 Goals for with Messi, 0.79 Goals Against. Messi scored 1.07 Goals per match or 331 Goals.

35 Matches, 27 W (77% Win Percentage), 2 D, 6 L without Messi (2.37 Points), 2.68 Goals for without Messi, 0.97 Goals Against.

^^
These numbers are basically from 9 Messi's leagues seasons (leaving out two other seasons of his 'prime' which would be the seasons of 2008-2009 and 2009-2010) and are 10 seasons of Pelé leaving out some dominant seasons like 1957, 1958, 1959 and 1973 for Santos.

I have other data as well, that I can copy here if you guys want it.

 

Messi has ~280-290 assists. Transfermarkt is already overestimating assists and Barcelona fc counts rebounds assists and many pre-assists as well.

 

That is 2.56 average, they probably peaked between 1953-1963-5 as a team (best Brazilian team in this time and one of the best of the world)
The average without Pelé in 60-69 in the same Campeonato Paulista was 2.26. (64-5 to 69 Santos declined)

But yeah 2.56 (52-56) + 2.26 (60-69) is the average without Pelé, but it is still lower than Barcelona without Messi and Real Madrid without Ronaldo in the Spanish League.

35 Matches, 27 W (77% Win Percentage), 2 D, 6 L without Messi (2.37 Points), 2.68 Goals for without Messi, 0.97 Goals Against.
That is for Messi.

The win percentage is also lowe.

But if Santos without Pelé managed to score at the rate of 2.56 before him or 2.26 without him in the next decade in the Campeonato Paulista. Santos scored way more with Pelé on the field (3.25 goals on average) and won much more (%).

226 Matches, 163 W (72% Win Percentage), 35 D, 28 L with Pelé (2.32 Points) 3.03 Goals for with Pelé, 1.22 Goals against. Pelé scored 1.30 Goals per match or 295 Goals.

68 Matches, 39 W (57% Win Percentage), 15 D, 14 L without Pelé (1.94 Points) 2.26 Goals for without Pelé, 1.22 Goals against.


Data from La Liga (2010/2011 to the 'incomplete' current season 2019/2020)

309 Matches, 232 W (75% Win Percentage), 53 D, 24 L with Messi (2.42 Points) 2.79 Goals for with Messi, 0.79 Goals Against. Messi scored 1.07 Goals per match or 331 Goals.

35 Matches, 27 W (77% Win Percentage), 2 D, 6 L without Messi (2.37 Points), 2.68 Goals for without Messi, 0.97 Goals Against.

That are pure and objective data.

His translate his level more in the International competitions than even in the Campeonato Paulista or very close to it. His GPG rate was 1.00 in his peak goalscoring level (1957-1965) for Brazil as well. He scored less in the National League because most of NL he played and he was out of his peak and Santos as well (Santos reached a terrible level in 70s).

 

I need to confirm it tho. I had 127 in 58 matches that Pelé played (missed 4).

 

Real Madrid Cristiano Ronaldo vs 09-18 Messi

Based on ELO ratings (Club Elo)
Just matches with 150 or less points of difference between the teams or vs 1900+ points sides (strong teams).

Cristiano Ronaldo






Messi







Overall:
Cristiano Ronaldo 54 Non-PK Goals + 8 Assists* in 83 Matches
Messi 36 Non-PK Goals + 15 Assists in 72 Matches

Cristiano Ronaldo had better stats than Messi agaist similar (or not so much weaker, OK) opponents.

That is off-topic, but maybe it is valid to this thread since they are from the same generation.

 

It is not fair. Wiki can be overestimating or underestimating. Messi data is clearly out, for more. So it isn't fair. Messi has 280-290 assists (strict sense) and Pelé can have 400 or I don't know it's not out of the question either, nodoby knows tho.

Per minutes is cool, but you are guessing Pelé's minutes after all and you are considering Barcelona scored goals in linear form and not scoring more goals with Messi on the pitch, so it is distorced.

I prefer to count for matches anyway.

 

I wouldn't call Santos pre-Pele a "super team" within Brazil but they were a dominant force in the Campeonato Paulista together with Sao Paulo FC, Corinthians and Palmeiras.

In 1955 Santos scored 71-40 goals (in 26 games) and Sao Paulo scored 72-37.
In 1956 Santos scored 98-36 goals (in 37 games)
In 1956 Sao Paulo scored 114-49 goals (in 37 games)
In 1956 Corinthians scored 95-50 goals (in 37 games)

1956 is the last season without Pele's influence (as he only played a few friendlies, no competitive games that year).
In 1956, Santos' top scorers were Tite (17 goals), Vasconcelos (14), Pagao (12), Del Vecchio (12), Pepe (10), Alvaro Valente (8), Jair (7), Alfredinho (7)

The following season, 1957, 16/17-year-old Pele was a regular in the Santos starting XI.

In 1957 Santos scored 144-65 goals (in 38 games)
That's an increased of 46 goals scored compared to the previous year (they also conceded far more goals, +29 goals).

Santos top scorers in 1957 were: Pele (36 goals), Tite (22), Pepe (21), Pagao (20), Dorval (11), Alvaro Valente (6).

In 1958 Santos scored 143-40 goals

Their top scorers were: Pele (58 goals), Pepe (30), Pagao (12), Helio (11), Dorval (10), Guerra (8).

Point is, while Santos were a top team in Sao Paulo before Pele, the arrival of 16 year old Pele transformed the team into an offensive juggernaut, socring way more goals then before Pele and also increasing the goals scored by his teammates considerably.

The influence Pele had on Santos offensively can't be overestimated in my opinion (and he was just a boy of 16-17 years).

 

Santos were already progressively scoring more and more every season

I don't see how you can put the explosion in 1957 down to Pele
When 15 years old Pelé debuted for Santos, on 7 September 1956, the exuberant side of Santos needed just one goal from the inspiring teenager, while freewheeling to a 7–1 friendly victory over Corinthians de Santo André.

For 3 of the previous 5 seasons before Pele debuted Santos had the biggest wins in the campeonato paulista

They were washing these teams away without their wonder boy


The 57 campeonato paulista had 3 stages I believe
Qualifying

The ten best teams of the qualifying rounds went to the blue series

The ten worst went to the white series

Santos qualified for the blue series and went on to score 63 goals in 18 matches against the 10 best teams of Sao Paulo


Pele contributed with 17 goals
27%

These are his first 12 matches for Santos
2 goals by Pele
39 goals by team


Do You have evidence Pele at 15 years old was pulling the strings and the creative force behind this?

It looks to me Santos were literally flying here
A super team within the context of Brazilian domestic football no doubt about this

 

It counts rebound assists and all type of wide assists. Transfermarkt is closest to Opta but even in Transfermarkt they add other type of wide assist.

 

After all, TOP50 doesn't matter. Puck's method of only the matches vs traditionals TOPNT is better (Spain, Germany, Italy, England, Brazil and Argentina), the TOP6.


I need to check Messi records but Pelé was somewhat like 18 Goals and 8 or 10 assists is some 22 matches against these top NT, better than any stats Neymar, Zico, R9 and Romário had.

His record, I need to check again but >>>>
Pelé ---> World Cup Qualification, World Cup, Libertadores, Mundiales, American Cup
44 Partidos, 50 Goles, 26 Asistencias (or 24-25 strict assists)

 

Club Elo and Transfermarkt. Search both.

Peak Messi scored more and assisted more against much weaker teams than Cristiano, but Cristiano had better stats against legit teams.

 

Apples vs oranges

Pele was lucky enough to debut for a team that scored 3.25 gpg


Brazil 62 without Pele scored 4 Gpg in the world cup KO stage


Argentina with Messi/Maradona/kempes
Portugal with Cristiano or Eusebio
Netherlands with Cruyff or Robben

Never ever scored at this rate in the WC
Let alone the world cup KO stage against the best NTs in the world


With garrinchas delivery from the wing Cristiano would score 15 world cup goals just with his head

 

You are talking to a brick wall. No matter what you say or show, he will shit on it and walk away. It doesn't pay and you don't have to prove anything. I already painted the big picture of the situation for him, and he, as always, either ignores or only quote the part he tries to answer (usually with false data or pseudo affirmations of all kinds). Very toxic.

Fact is Santos was probably the best team in Brazil that time (55-63/5) but Pelé made a lot of impact on the team, became the top scorer of the team and of the league history, won a World Cup in the process (also Copa America topscorer) being a fundamental and most decisive piece n the KO rounds, all of it with only 16-18 years old.

While

- Di Stefano was 19 or 20 in Huracan on loan, because he had no enough minutes at River Plate
- Cristiano Ronaldo wasn't the biggest name of his club until 2006-7 or even 2007-8. 22-23 years old.
- Messi was lost two La Ligas to a mediocre Real Madrid and even Aguero was better rated to Don Balon than him in 07/08 La Liga. Only kicked with Guardiola in 08/09 and even them you can argue Xavi and Iniesta was as impressive as him that season.
- The only thing Maradona had was a U20 World Cup in 1979 and according to Puck only started to score against big club teams or national teams in the mid-80.

These are facts.

 

Gregoriak has sources that suggest Pele scored 170 penalties in his career
https://www.xtratime.org/threads/pele-penalty-convertion-ratio.263174/


You are sucking up to the wrong person