Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire. (Obama's promise to televise health care negotiations)

Left of John Kerry? Fascinating. Because the National Journal ranked Kerry the most liberal senator in 2003. What was he doing in 2004? Oh, that's right.

Honestly, I know little about their rankings, but it is interesting that they always seem to rank the Democratic presidential nominee as the most liberal from the previous year.

Now Harry Reid is 25th most liberal and that is more liberal than John Kerry. Hmmmm.

 

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. People overwhelmingly supported a much more liberal version of this bill. Concessions have weakened support from the left, and lies have weakened support from low-information centrists and the right.

60 percent of Americans supported a public option. 60. But it's not there because all of the power in this rested with moderate Republicans and people like Joe Lieberman, who killed it for their own special interests.

People don't like this bill because it's too weak.

What we have is still better than nothing. A lot better. Not nearly as good as it could have been, nor as good as the public wanted, but it's still a major improvement.

Bullshit. The country thinks it's "moderate/right". However, they are wrong - liberal ideas are very popular; it's just that Democratic legislators are giant spineless **************.

Now, the label "moderate/right" is open to some interpretation. If "left" is the Democratic caucus, and "right" the GOP, this country is most certainly not "moderate/right". If "left" is, say, Scandinavian leftists, and "right" is the GOP, I'll buy that we're a "moderate/right" country.

But in no way, shape, or form are Democrats "too liberal" for America. The fact of the matter is that people will say they are moderate/right, but they actually prefer American liberal ideas and policies. The problem is that the right-wing noise machine is incredibly efficient/effective. Part of that is because there aren't enough people like Barney Frank who are willing to call bullshit on obvious bullshit.

3/4ths of Americans believe that AGW is happening (amazingly, despite our scientific illiteracy). More than half believe action is warranted (as opposed to just 12% who feel that "concern is unwarranted"). Americans supported Obama entering an agreement at Copenhagen 55 to 38. More people believe action taken to address global warming will help the economy than any other individual opinion. 75% of people think abortion should be legal. Just 12% of people think gun laws should be less strict (the rest are split between "stay the same" and "more strict"). Americans favor civil unions for gay people. 3 to 1 Americans support deficit spending to create jobs. In terms of expensive programs, Medicare is the most popular, tax cuts to wealthy the least favorite. Despite sagging poll numbers, Americans still trust Obama more than congressional Republicans by a wide margin to handle the budget and economy. Like 2 to 1. 2/3rds of Americans believe nobody (including us!) should have nuclear weapons.

I could go on, but why bother. It seems pretty clear to me that the Democratic party could move quite a bit further left than their average and better match the expectations and desires of The People. I'm not sure how that is translated as "moderate/right". People may say they are "moderate/right", but they really favor much more liberal ideas than Democrats are pushing right now.

 

It'd be easy enough for a great candidate like John Kerry to say “wait minute, that rating really distorts my record, I’m centrist DAMN IT!”… but they don’t (because they're not centrists, sorry Dave)

I posted the 2008 numbers because they seemed most relevant. IIRC the NJ has lifetime ratings also.

 

if you're going to disagree, might you tell me how a Senator was supposed to plow through 1000 pages of text in 48 hours and understand comprehensively what the legislation entailed?

 

helps if you're wearing these:

 

I wasn't talking about the Senate Majority Leader. I was agreeing with a post about the political leanings of the country as a whole.

But, I think Evan Bayh will be a good majority leader next year when Reid is defeated in November.

 

Evan Bayh doesn't have opinions so it is impossible to place where he stands. I understand why he often looks good to people outside of Indiana, inasmuch as he follows pretty closely polling here in his pretty conservative state, but he isn't a leader at all.

 

That's not really accurate...at least, it's too cute by half. It'd be more accurate to say, nobody reads every word of any bill.

We've been talking about this for, literally, 2 generations, since after WW II. It's total bullshit to think they didn't know what they were voting on.

Yes it is.

It was a big, big topic around here in 2004. Basically, Kerry's positions on the issues topped Bush's by 10-20 points for most things. And that's always true, at least in the last 20 years or so. People like the Dems' positions on the issues more than the Republicans.

I'll try to make a mental note, and the next time this comes up in the news I'll start a thread about it.

 

You can call bullshit all you want, but it doesn't make it true.

Dems and liberals would do well to remember this. It's how the country is, not how they want it to be.

 

Did you not read the rest of my post? People want policies more liberal than the Democratic caucus is pursuing.

 

He's been an ineffective leader, your problem with him was that he was too liberal. He's in the middle.

 

You quoted one Reuters article on the public option.

That does not equal the population at large trending more liberal than conservative.

The fact is, most Americans are in the CENTER. Bill Clinton knew that, which is where he governed from. So did Reagan and Bush 41.

I'm not sure yet about Obama.

 

Poll after poll after poll on a wide range of topics show that Americans would prefer more liberal policies than Democrats pursue. I provided some examples right there in the rest of the post that you apparently didn't read.

 

He's not in the middle, he is in the middle of the Democratic caucus. Big difference. And my problem with him is he has no sense of decency.

 

So you think the majority party should choose majority leaders on the extremes of their caucuses? You're criticizing him as ineffective (correctly) but then you make a suggestion that would cause greater failures in government.

 

do these polls also include the costs of these programs?

everybody wants something for free, but how do they feel about it when told how its gonna be paid for?

 

You raise a good point, but only partly. The polls probably don't mention the cost. They should. But they should also include information putting it in context, like "would you favor program X to help ordinary americans that would cost the taxpayers $1billion each year knowing that the taxpayer also subsidizes giant corporate agri businesses to grow food for unhealthy products in a way that is destroying the soil and the environment for future generations to the tune of $5 billion per year?

It seems to me that would be the fairest question of all. It would be interesting to find out the answer.

 

You project too much. I made no suggestions, I simply pointed out he isn’t a centrist as some here have insinuated.

 

Not hyperbole, just a matter of fact. If Harry has any scruples they belong to somebody else.

 

Silly child. It actually works the other way around - people say they all want lower taxes (who doesn't!), but when you start tying those taxes to specific programs, they support being taxed for those purposes.

This is exactly my point - people like to say they are "moderate/right" when speaking in generalities, but when you start talking about specifics, they tend to me more liberal than the Democratic caucus.

Just as an example, here's one on deficit spending. Two questions, same poll.

Code:

 "Would you find it acceptable or not acceptable to raise the deficit in the short term to try to create jobs and stimulate growth?"
 
  	  	Acceptable 	NotAcceptable 	NotNecessary	Unsure 	 
  	  	% 	% 	% 	% 	 
        	63 	31 	1 	5 	 
  	  	  	  	  	  	 

"In your opinion, does the federal budget deficit affect your own family's financial situation, or not?"
 
  	  	Does 	DoesNot 	Unsure 	  	 
  	  	% 	% 	% 
        	67 	31 	2

Then there's this:

Code:

"Do you consider the amount of federal income tax you have to pay as too high, about right, or too low?"
 
		Too High 	About Right 	Too Low 	Unsure 	
		% 	% 	% 	% 	
	        46 	48 	3 	2 	

"Do you regard the income tax which you will have to pay this year as fair?"

		Yes 	No 	Unsure 		
		% 	% 	% 		
	 	61 	35 	4 		
						
"As I read off some different groups, please tell me if you think they are paying their fair share in federal taxes, paying too much, or paying too little. How about [see below]?"

		Fair Share 	Too Much 	Too Little 	Unsure 	
		% 	% 	% 	% 	
	
"Lower-income people"
	 	41 	39 	16 	4 

"Middle-income people"
	 	50 	43 	5 	2 

"Upper-income people"
	 	23 	13 	60 	3 

"Corporations"
	 	18 	8 	67 	6 

Or this:

Code:

"Do you think the federal government should or should not regulate the release of greenhouse gases from sources like power plants, cars and factories in an effort to reduce global warming?"

		Should 	Should Not 	Unsure 	  	 
		% 	% 	% 	  	 
		65 	29 	6 	  	 


"What if that significantly lowered greenhouse gases but raised your monthly energy expenses by 10 dollars a month? In that case, do you think the government should or should not regulate the release of greenhouse gases?" Half sample

		Should 	Should Not 	Unsure 	  	 
		% 	% 	% 	  	 
		60 	37 	3 	  	 	

"What if that significantly lowered greenhouse gases but raised your monthly energy expenses by 25 dollars a month? In that case, do you think the government should or should not regulate the release of greenhouse gases?" Half sample
		
		Should 	Should Not 	Unsure 	  	 
		% 	% 	% 	  	 
        	55 	42 	3

All that reads for a more progressive tax structure, more action on climate change, a support for more liberal policies than Democrats are currently giving us.

 

This is what the repbulican arguments amount to today. He has no decency. Why do you say that? It's just a fact.


OOOOOOkkkkkaaayyyyyy.