Just a correction. Benny was NOT the boy square and back passing his way to fame in that tournament. He did a very good job of launching attacks from his deep position.
http://www.skysports.com/football/user_ratings/0,19768,11065_2847622,00.html Jonathan gets a "7" (did well in midfield) while Eddie gets a "6" (did well going forward). Fans give Spector a "7.8", Lewis a "4.2". Granted, this was a Colaship level of competition but some of us thought that Jonathan could be a decent defensive mid as far back as 3 years ago.
If Spector continues to show well in a defensive midfield spot for West Ham, that makes 5 different positions he could play for the National Team if called upon. What this means is that Mastroeni is very quickly becoming irrelevant at the international level. Thank you for your service in 2002, Mastro, but Bradley needs to realize soon that there are a handful of better options for the defensive mid spot now (his son being one of them).
For anyone who thinks the derby manager will get the sack: Average attendance for Derby last year in Division 2 was almost 26,000. Average attendance this year in the EPL for Derby's home games is around 31,000. for a difference of 5,000 per game. At a minimum of forty dollars per ticket per game for 19 games, the stadium ticket income alone is a revenue surplus of around $4 million per year compared to last year. Also, price tickets for the 26,000 attending last year must have gone up at least 3%, and concession income will have gone up another 20%. these two figures should total, conservatively, another one million to two million dollars for the season. Because of this season in the EPL, Derby can expect a TV revenue sharing guarantee of at least $60 million dollars. If Derby is relegated, they will get another $20 million next season and for 2009-10 if they are still there. TV revenue sharing for a team in the 2nd Division, such as Preston, will be between $1 and $3 million dollars this season and next. So Derby's presence in the EPL this year represents additional operating income for three seasons (2007 until May 2010) of more than $106 million copmpared with what they would have made had they stayed in Div 2. Undoubtedly, some of this extra money, up to $15 million, will be splashed out in January for two defenders and another tough midfielder. Since Davies and Derby are committed to exploiting the USA and Canada market, it's safe to expect at least one more Yank with Derby in February. My money is on Michael Parkhurst, unless he's snapped up by somebody with more likelihood of staying up. Dan Califf, laboring away in the ridiculous Danish league, is another possible candidate. Onyewu's lame performance last season in Newcastle will be hard to put aside, but he's tough and can intimidate some of the nippy Europeans who now have license to run through the middle of the Derby defense, so this may be his best shot at reclaiming his rep and returning to the EPL. If Derby goes down, they will almost certainly be in a situation closer to Watford than Norwich, mostly because Davies has orgnaized for 2nd Division play in 2008 already. That was the actual year Derby was supposed to reach the EPL in a blue-sky scenario, with 2010 being the more likely possibility. Instead, more than $100-million can be counted upon from the miraculous run last year, and the most important thing to do is ensure another possible ascendancy. Feilhaber was a cheap buy, and nobody else was knocking on his door, since his agent would have predicted relegation, or at least have been afraid of it. No doubt Benny was planned to play a little now, 15 minutes here and there in blow-outs, but Davies is not that impressed with the player or Feilhaber would be getting some small shots, especially at 22. Breaking in young players in the EPL means you're talking about 18- and 19-year-olds; in the best-case scenario Feilhaber becomes a starter at 23. Not a good return on your investment. So Benny has contributed to his lack of play, whether through mistake-prone practice (my guess), or his completely ineffective play since the Gold Cup. Isn't it safe to say that the Gold Cup led to only Benny's graduation to Europe? The scouts know what an absurd competition the Gold Cup was last summer, so nothing came of it. From the disaster of the under-20s, though, three kids got signed in Europe, Adu, Zizzo and Danny Sz. The scouts know what they're looking for. Davies will not be fired even if his team loses every game 5-0 the rest of the way. If Derby is sitting mid-table in the 2nd Div in January of 2009, he might arrange to resign, and a proud soccer team will have to start all over. I would bet heavily that will not be the case. This is a brilliant year for Derby management, despite the the terrible results on the field. Feilhaber would not get an ounce of playing time anywhere else in the EPL right now, and half the managers in the league would do him damage if he was on their bench. Curbishley, Big Sam, Bruce, there is enough pressure to overlook a player unwilling to seize the moment. Benny is in the best place he could be in England. He'll get some runs soon, probably in a position not to his liking (or to the liking of the posters here) and it will be completely up to him to hustle and attack defensively as Demspey, say, does at Fulham whenever he chases the goalkeeper or the defenders bringing out the play. To idle and wait for the perfect pass is a luxury Feilhaber will never have in the EPL, so he'll have to learn how to do the dirty work that wins games. Davies will not be fired. Feilhaber has nowhere else to go this season. Derby County is doing just fine. They'll add a few more players (half of Bolton wants to bolt; there is excellent talent at the bottom of the 2nd Division, such as Simek, who might like the spring taste of the EPL and then a Watford-like run back next season). But don't take my word for it. Ignore the brilliant passes by Feilhaber in South Africa; count to 20 every time he receives the ball, and I'll bet you half the time the South Africans by the count of "20" will be on the attack, and then you can get a much clearer picture of the frustration Davies must be feeling, and not just the injustice you think Feilhaber is suffering at the hands of an incompetent dope, as so many posters assume.
Do you know this? Feilhaber has been quoted as stating that playing time and a desire to be in England were important. No, his performance at the U-20 WC led to his contract with Hamburg. That's pure speculation. Coaches have miriad reasons for not using players. Could be quality. Could be the player turns out not to fit the coach's vision of how the position should be played. Could be just a compatibility issue. Dempsey wasn't a starter with Fulham when the season began and an of last week he was top 10 among midfielders in goals. But sure Derby looks well-placed, but may not be the best option in England.
Well, it's been a while since I saw us win 0-5 so we had a good journey home even though we know Derby were all over the place today. When a team is barely good enough in the first place it's a killer blow to have their 2 starting CHs injured and Miller who must be one of their best midfield players just coming back from injury. West Ham have a good away record and a defence that is one of the best at not conceeding goals so it was never going to be easy for them. I don't have any knowledge of Benny Feilhaber is but if he is anything other than a top quality defender or defensive midfielder his presence yesterday was not required. I'm getting the impression from posts on this thread that he is more an attacking midfielder. You build the team from the defence forwards, you can't play attacking flair football unless you have a defence and DM who are good enough to deal with the inevitable counter attacks from the opposition. The days of not caring if you conceeded 4 as you'd score 5 are over, that's pub team tactics. If he's a young player he appears to be in a similar situation to Spector was the beginning of last season at WH, being at a club which is going through total dissarray and I actually agree with the comments made on this thread that he is better off not having his confidence destroyed playing in a team that is a shambles. There has to be some stability and order for him to come into. Spector was one of our players who came out of last season with an undamaged reputation, mainly because he wasn't associated with the likes of Reo Coker and Ferdinand who played the whole season and are viewed as the rotten apples. It is not the end of his world if he ends up being a starter at Derby in the Championship next season, it's the 5th biggest league in Europe attendance wise and not all teams play long ball kick and hope. If Derby have a successful promotion run it's going to give him both the experience and confidence to develop. Whether Davies is the sort of manager who puts out an attack minded team which would suit an attack minded midfielder,possibly like Feilhaber, is another matter and one for the Derby or Preston fans to answer. Back to the game, Spector was filling in defensive midfield for the injured Mullins. His best play was going forward, he had so little to do defensively that I'm not going to judge whether he is a PL quality DM based on that game. He had a clear chance very early on when through on goal but scuffed the shot so that it ended nearer the corner flag, had the makings of a similar break not long after but Derby snuffed it out in time. I think Spector should appeal to the dubious goals panel as I think he should get the goal. Lewis was standing slightly behind the goal line and the ball was on (but not over) the line when he tried stopping it, which he did momentaritly before allowing the ball to squirt under his legs and over the line. All the fans and WH players were celebrating it as a Spector goal so he is our new fox in the box hero. Eddie Lewis was as poor as everyone else, barely noticed he was on the pitch other than for the Spector goal. I was keeping an eye on Barnes as I believe WH bid for him in the Summer. He did OK but it didn't take much too look good in their side yesterday unfortunately. We now have a two week break, depending on who is fit the next home game against Spurs could see Spector at fullback, midfield or even back on the bench.
If that's the standard for Derby, could you explain again why it matters to the coach who he plays on the field? If they have no defense until January, and can't afford forwards until 2010, and are going to lose dreadfully every game and every Derby fan thinks that's a fine plan......exactly why aren't they playing their more finesse players? Edit: I read Hammerette's post, and the somewhat more optimistic theory that the newer players are better off not playing in this shambles. And maybe that's the plan? But, if giving up 4 and scoring 5 are pub team tactics, and Derby is giving up 5....maybe scoring a few would look a little bit better?
I've seen Derby 4 or 5 times this year, including their one shining moment (Newcastle). Benny should be starting in that midfield, so should Earnshaw up top.. You can spin it any way you like, but Davis doesn't like/trust/something the two of them.. They create while these mooks run around aimlessly... The old tried and trusted/ego thing is preventing Derby from scoring goals..
Ionno... Watford had a much better squad and were really a Marlon King injury from doing a lot better
Derby desperatly need to stop leaking goals first though. The bottom line is that you cannot lose a game if you do not conceed. If they can get their back line fit and stable, scrape a draw or two then they can add the flair. I know what you are saying about them needing creativity yo score goals but it's not the priority IMO, being able to defend is. Tevez played in 20 games for West Ham before he scored his first goal and he was our most talented and creative player by far. He only started to shine when his team mates started raising their game.
If Derby really is a team who figures that since they made a good run to get up last year and they have some money in the bank that its fine and dandy to get badly beaten at every turn this year and doesn't care a bit, they're a sad excuse for a club. I do agree with the point that they need to shore up defense first. And Benny's habit of losing the ball in bad situations isn't going to do him favors (I would point out, he's not a purely attacking player, more of a possession guy who played more defensive mid than anywhere else in Hamburg). But, if Derby think its swell to piss away money, even if the fee isn't high, on a guy who's no good for them, I gotta go back to a pretty sad sort of club. If they don't hold a coach responsible for what he spends because they feel they are just so full of Premiership money, they just look foolish. Have fun dropping back down, and please stay there until you have at least some intention of attempting to compete.
Derby is, what, four years removed from almost going under because they gambled on staying up and invested more than they could afford on a team that didn't give them much of a chance. Smart teams that ride the play of young players into the top flight, are much better off financially tying up those players for a couple years, letting them get blooded in the top flight, and then, having established a firm financial footing for the club, preparing use the parachute payments and their young player to yo-yo. Throwing around money they don't have is a recipe for disaster, and Derby has seen how bad it can get. Overspending on players, and then failing to stay up anyway (and be honest, Derby isn't going to attract the kind of players who are sure-fire top level prem players, they're going to attract players who cost a lot and have serious issues (attitude, fitness, experience, etc). It's the long term success of the club that matters, not this season. The prem is not the be-all, end-all of the footie experience. As for Feilhaber, I'm sure he's a bit of a disappointment to them. But just because they paid more for him than they did for other players doesn't mean a thing. Derby paid project price, not finished article price for BF. He is what he is, a player with potential, no more. He's just arrived, he's inexperienced at the professional level and he's never played in England before. It takes time to break through. Maybe what's happening is that they're giving him time.
Real talk. I think a lot of us Americans look simply at results rather than the health and size of a club-- which is a factor, sometimes a bigger factor for a club. We're used to the things inherent to American sports that create parity-- no relegation, the draft, equity sharing in the NFL, a salary cap-- and forget that for a club like Derby in 07-08 the EPL was almost a fluke and, good or bad, their most immediate concern is re-establishing the financial health of their club and being in a position to compete for a spot in the EPL for years and then, ideally, eventually work its way into being a midtable team who doesn't fear relegation. If they risk the future of the team going all-in to get that now, when they're ill-prepared for it, the results could be disastrous. This is a club that historically and size-wise thinks it should be a prem team, but seem smart enough to build toward it. What that means for Benny is another matter altogether.
Tad harsh on Derby, nobody. They are trying to do the best they can but their best just isn't good enough at the minute. Anyway, our fox in the box speaks! http://www.whufc.com/page/News/0,,12562~1165102,00.html
Yeah, that was a bit unfairly harsh. Just, when I hear things like people saying the coach is doing a fine job regardless of how badly and how often they get beaten, its just an attitude I find a bit odd. I know it is a financial boom to move up. But, I don't think I am alone in saying that it would be nice if when teams move up they at least have some intention of trying to compete rather than just saying, oh well, we'll probably go back down anyway, so we really don't care if people knock the crap out of us game in, game out. We'll just take the money and run. Teams move up every year and most make a solid attempt at being competitive and quite a few actually do stay up. If Derby has no intention of even attempting to do so, then I really can't feel bad for them. They don't care if they are beaten badly at every turn and want to just stash away their promotion money? Well, get used to getting demolished for the rest of the season then. I don't necessarily think Benny would do much to help them. I'm juts saying that when a team is obviously getting crushed regularly, they need to do something to change. And, Derby seem unwilling to do so. And, if they have brought in players that are useless to them, they made mistakes there. How people can come on and claim Derby is doing everything right is what I have issue with. They're obviously not. I don't imagine Benny is the answer to turning this around. Maybe they buy some players as was suggested who can turn them around. But, being unwilling to do anything other than what maintains the status quo is just going to make the rest of the season a disaster. And, it seems to me, I see all too many arguments on here that support just staying a failing course.
Time for BigSoccer posters to jack another fan voting poll. EVERYONE give Spector a 10. The kid scored his first goal today!!! http://www.skysports.com/football/user_ratings/0,19768,11065_2847622,00.html By the way, that picture they have of him is completely wrong. That's not him
It's between $5M and $6M now and will rise to ~ $8M starting in 2009 once the BBC deal kicks in. Definitely not the Prem's $60M (and rising) but on par with the second tier top leagues like Norway.
How are you getting $8m a year? The deal is worth $176m a season. There are 72 clubs in the Football League which will share the money.
I'm sure Derby fully intended to have a go at staying up. They just weren't prepared to break the bank to do so, as doing that, and failing, would probably mean them saying hello to Bradford City in League Two in five or six year's time. You can hardly blame championship clubs for finding it hard to bridge the financial chasm between there and the premiership.
Are you implying that League 2 sides get the same as Championship sides? That doesn't make any sense if that's the case. Bad deal for CCC teams, whom you might think have more power in the League than others.
What I am saying is that you cannot divide the money by the amount of teams in the Championship. They will get a bigger percentage of the money but not all of it. The deal is for the whole of the Football League not just the Championship. As it includes money for the League Cup as well, the payments for the tv appearance will come out of the deal as well. The Championship teams have 1 vote. The same as Division 1 and 2 (Or whatever they are calling it this week. It is still Division 3 and 4)
If the poster "Nobody" thinks Derby's plan is to take the money and run and not bother to compete, he's nuts. Derby -- management and players -- are competing like scalded cats every week. Ossiend's post above indicates the fans are fairly happy with the spirit of the team even if they realize the reality of the situation. But Derby's plan is not to finish in fifth place and qualify to play against Prague or Vienna in UEFA. The plan is to become a permanent member of the EPL. Maybe "Nobody" is from a city like Kansas City or Pittsburgh, where sick baseball teams never will get better, do not try to, and cash in from the revenue-sharing luxury-tax system of American sports. I'd love to see a relegation system in place for baseball. Goodbye Royals and Pirates! Derby was on the verge of bankruptcy, now they're looking at more than $106 million in UNEXPECTED revenue. They will be buyers in the January window, and there are tons of talented players in the lower 3 divisions and on the continent who can be EPL players. Can Davies and his management identify them? That is the billion-dollar question. Davies' own career as a scrapper suggest he'll be able to find a few Jay Demerits to prop up his team; whether he can ever recognize the silks of a teenage Thierry Henry or Didier Drogba is a tough assumption. If Watrfors is clear in Div 2 by ten points in January, Davies has his selling pitch to dozens upon dozens of young talents. This is the way to the EPL. Of course Derby didn't plan on getting shellacked 5-0 by the likes of West Ham. But a hammering like that will have to be withstood in the scheme of long-term success. Why do American sports teams who plan way into the future get called geniuses, while here on BS potshots are taken at a team which is succeeding 100% as plain as anyone can see, even if it means getting thumped every week? Why not go to Wikipedia or someplace and do a little research on Davies? I'm not going to say he's brilliant, but he damn sure knows what he's doing. If Derby are on top of the 2nd Division next February, and Feilhaber is a dangerous one-touch passer lurking around the box up top, feeding Miller or another young gun brought in this January, then Davies will look like a genius and the BS posters will be waxing his praises. And the English press will be saying what a good buy Benny was back then, when he was a stud who didn't know the difference from east and west. And to Hammerette's assertion that Derby is a shambles compared to West Ham last year: No. Derby is physically ill-equipped to take the field every week in the EPL. Leeds and Bolton and Norwich are shambolic teams; Derby is solid as a rock. Finances are miraculous compared with just three seasons ago, the future looks like it has a return to the EPL (and another $100-million over three seasons, minimum, even with another relegation), and you've got a coach who can get more out of his men than other coaches can, as witnessed last season. Boro, Spurs, Crystal Palace, QPR, Bristol Rovers, Millwall . . . all these teams would like to have as clear a vision of the future as Derby has. Those teams are in a shambles. Maybe Juande saves Spurs; there is talent there that simply needs electricity. But the management of the team is pathetic. I am a Minneosta Vikings fan, to the last drop of my blood, and they've got the best young sensation in the game, but the team's is a freaking mess. The owner and his management (and his coach) are 100% incompetent fools, and must go. I don't think any Derby fan is as pissed off about his tyeam's fortunes as I am about mine. ----------------- And from what I read about the TV sharing: A low-plac ed team in Division two gets one million pounds this year. Where does the 2.5 to 4 million pounds figure come from? My quickest source reference would be Wikipedia: The Premier League distributes a small portion of its television revenue to clubs that are relegated from the league in the form of "parachute payments". Starting with the 2006–07 season, these payments are in the amount of £6.5 million over the club's first two seasons in lower leagues, although this is set to rise to £11.2 million per year for clubs relegated in 2007–2008.[44] Designed to help teams adjust to the loss of television revenues (the average Premier League team receives £45 million while the average Football League Championship club receives £1 million), critics maintain that the payments actually widen the gap between teams that have reached the Premiership and those that have not, leading to the common occurrence of teams "bouncing back" soon after their relegation. If the payments are done on a sliding scale, I can see where the top 2nd division team might get $5 million, but such a scale would heavily penalize the worst teams in the fourth division, so i doubt there would be that much disparity. (And I was corrected that Feilhaber joined Hamburg before moving to England; my post should have read that Feilhaber graduated from the Gold Cup this summer to England, not to Europe.)
Your mention of Tevez in this conversation is ironic. He was languishing on the bench because Pardew apparently couldn't figure out what to do with him or how to construct a team around him. Even Curbishly took a few games to put him in the starting 11 every game. Despite his obviously playing at a different level (and not just skill, but with grit, determination, hustle and all those cherished English values) there were xenophobic questions of whether he was "EPL quality." Not to mention that Mascherano was discarded. Tevez at West Ham was a crystal clear case of poor player selection in favor of "tried and true," even while the club was performing very poorly on the pitch. Feilhaber is not the same player as Tevez ... not by a country mile. But the team context looks pretty familiar. Davies deserves his share of the blame for an astoundingly awful start. Why should his player selection go uncriticized?