I think that the level of play among the top clubs this year has gone down. Liverpool look absolutely awful. They can barely string together a few passes and they are still boring to watch. Arsenal too seem to lack the dynamic movement of the forwards and midfield that they had last year. They also seem to be coming forward less from the back. Manchester Utd. too seem to be missing the combination play from Keane, Giggs, Scholes, and Ruud of last year. And do I need to say anything about Newcastle? They're nowhere near the club they were last year. Tottenham, Everton, Blackburn, Leeds, Middlesborough, and Charlton are all looking pretty poor. Chelsea and Birmingham are the only clubs that are consistantly exciting to watch this year. Anyone agree?
So, you plan on watching Liverpool at all this season? It might help ... And Charlton are an average side, eh? Well Goshdarnit ...
If Birmingham (9 goals scored in 10 games) are exciting to watch, then I'll eat my underpants. And surely the irony of a Sheffield Wednesday supporter criticising other clubs is too much to take?
How many times have Birmingham actually been on telly this season? Once? Their match against Chelsea is the only one I can remember. So to form the opinion that they are exciting at all is hilarious - but on the basis of one (dull) game?
Ok, Birmingham have been on twice, I believe. Still, I read all reports, watch highlights, etc... But I concede, I like Birmingham and that may color my judgement. I am a huge fan of Dunn, Dugarry, Lazaridis, and Forsel. However, despite the personal attacks on me, my club,(it sucks supporting Wednesday) and the complete dismissal of what I said, I am still waiting for someone to disagree or agree and back it up. Last year's play was superior to this year's play. Arsenal, Manchester Utd., Newcastle, Everton, Blackburn, Chelsea, played good football last year. Manchester Utd.have, at times, looked like a division one squad. Arsenal too, seemed to have lost a bit of spark. As to the Liverpool comment. They are up and down, but they don't seem ready to compete in Europe as they did a few years ago. And there's the gist of what I'm saying. Chelsea look to compete in Europe but Arsenal are looking awful in Europe. And of course, Newcastle is done in Europe. Even in the UEFA cup, English teams seem to be getting knocked out by clubs I would expect to be of little concern to big English teams. Anyway, disagree, if you want-I don't care- but back it up. What have you seen that I haven't?
Last night's Birmingham game, for a starter ... As to agree or disagree, I think this thread is positively drenched in both explicit and implied disagreement, don't you? But oh well ... Newcastle started last season just as badly as they have this one and yet rallied to finish third. They are moving up the table as we speak. So there's that one out of the window. As is the notion that they are 'done' in Europe this season. They face Basel in the second round of the UEFA Cup this week. A tough assignment, granted, but then Newcastle have shown they can perform in Europe when called upon to do so. As was the case last season, their recovery of League form presaged a strong fightback in Europe (where they lost their first three games in the CL). So that simply doesn't hold up. Liverpool's play this season, despite being statistically inferior to our start to the last campaign, is immeasurably better in many more intangible ways. Our attacking play is much improved, our fluency and composure much better and, in short, nothing exists to back up your original, rash statement. United are now second, whereas this time last season, they were about eighth and they are odds on to qualify for the Quarter finals of the Also Rans League. I doubt they'll get much further without a very kind draw, but that too is no change from last year. Ditto Arsenal - their league form to this point is actually better than this time last year and their European form only marginally worse than it habitually is anyway. So again - no change. Chelsea? They are incomparably better now than they were this time last year. For obvious reasons. They lie third in the table and, unlike this time last year when they were getting knocked out of the UEFA Cup by FC Nobodski, tonight they travel to Rome seeking to do the double over Lazio (see also your later comment about Enlish teams in the UEFA Cup). Then you have the likes of Everton and Blackburn who last season started strongly and then held a creditable level throughout. Well, for Everton and Blackburn last season, read Fulham, Manchester City and - yes - Birmingham City this season. As things stand, only two English clubs have been knocked out of the UEFA Cup this season - Blackburn and Southampton. Blackburn were also knocked out early on last season (by Celtic) and Southampton have not been in Europe since 1977, so their performances, good or bad, are hardly indicitative of any trend in the level of play. In short, you couldn't be more wrong. And with statements like 'Manchester United have, at times, looked like a Division One squad' that was always the risk you were running. If you want to get something out there for debate, a more measured delivery might be an idea.
I was also think why the standard of football was so poor this season. I think it comes down to two issues, one being the uncertainty over alot of teams financial circumstances the other being the knock on effect of that, all the loan players. I think the top five teams are generally playing good football, (Newcastle remember started just as bad last season). Apart from them the only teams that seem to be playing with any freedom have been Man City and Fulham. This loan system should be abolished.
The standard of play is every bit as good this season as it was last. Arguably, it is better. Leeds are the only team using the loan system extensively and abolishing it is hardly going to help their fight to prosper despite the crippling insecurity of their financial position. If it weren't for their assortment of Random Foreign Blokes, they'd have trouble putting a matchday squad together. Middlesbrough are the only other side with more than two loan players as regular starters and they are doing exactly the same this season as they were last season. As to the fact that the top five teams are the only ones playing with the freedom you expect ... well, what can you say? T'was ever thus.
If the overall level is better then why have the top three clubs already stretched away?, most of the other teams have a severe lack of confidence and just aren't competing like they were last season. Arsenal haven't been performing that well this season but they are still top, doesn't say much for most of the teams below them.
Happened last season too. We were four points clear at the top by mid-October. Arsenal were second and (I think) Chelsea were right behind them, with a good couple of points between them and fourth-placed Everton. You keep saying this, but where's evidence for it? Where's the lack of confidence at Fulham, City, Birmingham? Where is a comparative lack of progression in the middling sides like Southampton, Charlton or Villa? They are doing exactly the same this time out as they were last time. Evidence, please! Arsenal have beaten Chelsea and won at Liverpool against the run of play. If anything, those wins were testament to their individual quality, rather than the paucity of their opposition. At Anfield, it was the exact opposite - we played them off the park for most of the game and lost to a Pires winder strike. Arsenal are winning and drawing games when under the cosh (United game another point in hand) and they have battered sides when they are expected to do so (Leeds a perfect example). Again ... there is no evidence for the assertions being made here. It's all based on (faulty) perceptions of 'confidence' and other such intangibles.
You seem to need evidence, all the evidence I need is my opinion and that opinion is based on watching the Premiership. This season I have see some dire football caused by what must be a lack of confidence. The three top teams in the league were never this dominant so early last season, as for saying that Arsenal battered Leeds, well it was hard not to, they are awful!!, Arsenal also beat them 4-1 last season but played far superior football. I have never watched such poor Premiership footie as I have this season. Boro, Southampton, Leeds, Blackburn, Everton, Charlton, Bolton, Tottenham, Villa, Wolves, Leicester and Birmingham, all playing poor football. They all seem happy to play out 0-0 bore draws and hardly put 3 passes together.
Well, each to their own. I don't need evidence, I just think it would help your case in arguing that the standard of play is lower this season by providing something other than "i just think it is". You see dire football every season. Remember, the Premiership is the most overhyped league in the world. As to the supposition about confidence, it is just that. Eschew the "need" for evidence if you will, but ultimately all that is just your (apparently baseless) opinion. Fact: There are always two or three early breakaway teams in the league that establish a strong position early on. Last season it was Liverpool and Arsenal, this season it is Arsenal, United and Chelsea. Fact: Every season sees a couple of bottom-feeders have piss-poor starts. Last season it was Sunderland and West Ham, this season it is Leicester, Wolves and Leeds. I will grant you that the demise of Blackburn is as surprising as it is unusual, but as has been discussed, that is made up for in terms of overall quality by the relative improvement of Fulham and Man City. Last season a Premiership team recorded the worst preformance record EVER and yet this season, we have a lower standard? Wow ... things really are bad. Really? When did you start watching? Boro are Boro. They are doing now exactly what they did last season ... and the season before ... and the season before. And they will do it again next season. They are a phenomenon. No matter how many apparently quality players you poor into that side, they are always pap. There's nothing new or even vaguely unusual about that. Leeds? In a state of unprecendented (literally) melt-down. Hardly a solid yardstick for the overall standard of league play. Blackburn - granted. Given you that one. Quite bizarre. But again - does that make it indicitative of a general decline in standards? Everton? Overachieved last season. Will level out in mid-table obscurity over the course of this campaign. Which is actually an improvement over their tradition form in the Premiership, where relegation was an annual spectre. Charlton are doing perfectly well thank you. They are neither better nor worse than they were last season. Ditto Bolton - they are not due their annual string of results until March next year. Until then, they will trudge along in the lower reaches of the league. Spurs, Villa? Ditto ditto. Birmingham, according to the current argument put forward on here, are now indicitative of good and bad play. Which is it? Personally, I think they are playing with a lot of confidence and results have followed accordingly. Again though, that does little for your overall argument, now does it? And Wolves and Leicester? Well ... see above. Happens every season and is therefore neither unusual nor noteworthy. Sorry, but there's still nothing here we can give any real credence to.
Not quite sure what your sorry for but anyway, I don't have the time to disect everything you have said so let me say this. I know the Premiership, and I know certain teams will never play great football but it's MY opinion that the overall quality of football has been worse and it's only your opinion that's nothing has changed. The argument about Fulham, Birmingham and Man City playing confident football is more down to the apparent lack of confidence in the opposition, Birmingham are absolutely no different to the water carriers they had last season, as for Fulham and Man City they play attacking football but they are not much different to last season, it's all relative, teams are doing better than others because that's the nature of a league, it doesn't mean they are any better than last season all I believe it means is that the opposition is poorer (apart from the big five).
Well, of course this is all a matter of opinion. But yours seems based on largely illogical premises. For instance, your latest offering basically amounts to "I think teams lack confidence and the opposition is poor, therefore Man City and Fulham are doing well". Which ignores a whole raft of issues. Fulham, for instance, are playing far more cohesive football now than they were in the latter stages of Tigana's reign. This is down to Coleman, not the relative quality of the teams they are facing. That is a facile argument if ever I saw one. Likewise, Birmingham this season are incomparably different to the raw promoted team of this time last year. For a start, they have since added Christophe Dugarry, David Dunn and Mikael Forrsell. And they have a season in the Premiership behind them. That is the source of their confidence and of their results. It has nothing to do with an overall decline of play. But you're right. It's all just opinion. I just don't hink youres adds up. Especially with comments like 'I have never seen Premiership footie as poor as this'. That suggests either a touch of hyperbole or a relatively recent acquaintance with the Premiership.
Are you always this patronising?. I have watched the Premiership from the start and I have watched enough football this season to form the opinion the quality has been poorer than I can remember. I've said it before and I'll say it again there is a distinct lack of freedom of play throughout the Premiership at the minute, I don't think it's down to lack of quality, maybe it's the pressure of being so desperate to stay in the Premiership, I'm afraid I can't prove that, the managers and chairmen would be in a better position to prove any of this. I was maybe a little harsh on Birmingham and Fulham, they have improved but I don't think they should be good enough for the upper reaches of the league.
Who says they are? It's November the 4th. Wake me if they're still in the top six come May. And I don't mean to patronise (although yes, I am always this patronising) it's just that there no way on God's green earth that the 2003/04 Premiership season (as it stands) represents the "worst Premiership footie" ever seen. That's just ridiculous. The quality now - even if we allow your case to stand - is exponentially better than it was even five years ago. Go back to the formation of the Premiership - or even beyond, deeper into the history of the English top flight and you have to be heading into the mid-1980's to find similar levels of quality and competitiveness.
I think the standard of football is actually very good this year. A limitation on transfer activity has meant clubs have had to work harder with what they've got. As for A*senal beating Leeds 4-1, if you actually saw the game you would realise that most of A*senal's goals came from counter attacking with Henry. Leeds actually had the better of the play in the game, even when they were 3-0 down. Charlton, Birmingham, Fulham - all these teams in the middle are stronger than ever.
Good point actually, I forgot about that when mentioning games in which Arsenal has prevailed -over opponents against the run of play. Leeds were all over them for large parts of the game. So if even Meltdown United represent a strong test of the league's leaders ...
I have said I don't think it's a 'quality' problem, more likely confidence and managers that follow the mould of teams like Southampton, success = long ball & crossing from anywhere in the opposition half, it's just isn't very entertaining. I think most teams look at what happened to West Ham and think that good football can only be played successfuly by the big boys. No way on 'God's green Earth' can Birmingham be called an entertaining football team. There will be one almighty battle for relegation for sure.
What league have u been watching?, La Liga? your own team are a prime example of the lack of cohesion in many teams. As for the Leeds game, I saw enough to realise that was the worst defensive display I have seen in a long time. Who cares if they passed the ball around in their own half?
But remember - your argument is that this season has seen a noticeably lower standard of football than last season. But every example you cite is one of a situation that this seasons remains entirely identical to what it was last season. Saints now - Saints then. I think you do Saints a slight disfavour in terms of their quality of play, but if anything, they are another example of how your argument is bascially flawed. By your logic, teams "that follow the mould of teams like Southampton" are indicitative of a drop in quality from last season into this. But Southampton are doing WORSE this season than last. So to extend your logic fully is to conclude that this season the quality has actually gone up because that style or quality of play is reaping fewer rewards. I don't think it has, I think it is entirely unchanged. But I'm just using your logic here. Likewise there is nothing tangible that you can point to as support for the idea that more teams are playing "long ball & crosses from anywhere in the opposition half". There is not one team that is doing more than that this season than they were anyway last season. Well, for a start it is highly questionable whether West Ham played all that much good football last season. You say the Leeds performance on the weekend was the worst defensively that you have seen in a long time, you can't have seen many West Ham, West Brom or Sunderland games last season. And there is also nothing with which to substantiate your notion that managers of teams outside of the top five have made the conscious decision not to play good football, because their teams are somehow not capable of it. Most if not all teams have made no obvious change in their mentality whatsoever. The only obvious changes are at Liverpool, who are part of "the big boys" in any case and at Villa, where the archetypal devotee of the sort of football you apparently see everywhere, Graham Taylor, has departed and been replaced by a man whose legacy for as good a brand of football as he can managed is there for all to see. Well no one other than the originator of this thread has tried to claim Birmingham are an entertaining team. But neither can you say that they are worse now than they were a year ago. That's manifestly untrue.
Just because A*senal are worse than they were last season and on a steady decline doesn't mean the rest of the league is. We're a better team than we were in the second half of last season. Could do better of course and need a new ballwinner, but then I'm not claiming us to be the complete outfit.
Sooo ... your argument is that despite an identical start to last year, achieved (or rather, suffered) for identical reasons as last year, is not indicitative of anything, it just supports your assertion that this year, the standard of football is lower. This makes no sense. No you're not. I am. And there is no difference. Newcastle were appalling this time last year. Especially in Europe, which was your original benchmark. Right ... so we keep hearing. I have yet to see anyone offer any substantiation for this. I mean, if Newcastle won the league with that defence, it would be a fairly strong indication that the standard of play this season dropped overall. But two things: 1) they won't and 2) the season is only two months old, so no overall conclusion can be drawn in any case. They played two games. One they drew 0-0, the other they lost 1-0. Hardly 'dreadful'. The team that edged them out of the group stages following these encounters drew 0-0 with Real Madrid last night. Does that mean Real Madrid are rubbish this season or just that Partizan Belgrade are actually a fairly decent side when it comes right down to it? No, for two reasons. One, FIFA have nothing to do with the Champions League and two, these things are decided on a five-year coefficient. This year, two English teams will reach the knock-out stages of the CL, possibly three if Arsenal manage to sort themselves out. Our coefficient is unlikely to be affected in any way by Newcastle's failure to reach the group stages. I didn't say it wasn't. But the fact remains that Liverpool are rebuilding, using an entirely different style to this time last year, whereas Newcastle are not. They are, in theory, building on an established order. There is a difference there, whether you like it or not. Erm ... OK. As it happens, Riise has been piss-poor and was rightly dropped for the last two games, Henchoz is only just coming back from injury but should, in all probability not displace the far quicker Biscan and Steve Finnan (the 'whoever it is' ...) is well established. Owen has been injured for the past few games but has otherwise been excellent and has of course already been combined with Kewell. To good effect. No offence, but I have even graver doubts about the amount of Liverpool action you have watched this season now. So your original comments about them just look even more rash and baseless. We've won our last three games, two away from home. Sorry ... but see above ... United are now second, whereas this time last season, they were about eighth and they are odds on to qualify for the Quarter finals of the Also Rans League. I doubt they'll get much further without a very kind draw, but that too is no change from last year. Ballsy Gigs-type dribbling? Now there's a transfer they kept quiet. They played EXACTLY that game at Elland Road, they sat back, kept possession well, absorbed intense Leeds pressure (who played very well and were all over Arsenal for most of the game) and then hit them with utterly lethal counterattacks. They had three chances in the first half and scored all of them. Plus, of course, they have never relied on 'dribbling runs' as much as they have on swift, long, low passes on the break. Pires and Ljundberg know how to advance with the ball at their feet, but the Arsenal trademark is the quick release. The Leeds game was textbook Arsenal in more ways than not. No, they weren't. So United have had two off days. Or rather, their first team has had one (Southampton away) and their reserve team has had another (Fulham at home). This is not the conclusive proof of degrading standards within the EPL that you seem to think it is. United have been on a gentle decline for about three years now in any case. Plus, of course, other teams have been catching up with them. And yet, they are the reigning champions. Courtesy, in the main, of a quite spectacular collapse by Arsenal last season. One they do not look likely to repeat this time out. That promises to be a battle unlike the ultimately insipid end we had last year. Oh and to quote, you simply put quote tags around the portion of text you wish to highlight. Type one of these--> [ Then write quote Then type one of these--> ] At the other end of the portion of text you wish to highlight Type one of these -->[ Then one of these--> / Then write quote Then type one of these --> ]