OK, enlighten us. To have a real shot at advancing past the first round, we'd have needed Hristo and Nowak to come back 100%. Or for Brian Kamler to break his leg, as it turned out. This didn't happen. And to get to the Cup Final, we'd have had to face NE or LA eventually and with all the Fire's problems, I just don't see us winning either of those series knowing the way we played in the first round. We were a very wounded team that didn't win (but also didn't embarrass ourselves either!) against the eventual runner-up. I see absolutely no shame in that considering the circumstances. No other MLS team would have gotten as far as we did if they'd had our problems.
Sorry, man. Don't know you well enough. Just going on what I read. I think in any situation you can look back and think we coulda done this we shoulda done that but when it comes down to it, who knew then? It's as easy to say that Peter should have known and solved these problems then it is to say he couldn't have forseen everything because much of it hadn't happened yet. It just depends on your perspective and who's to say which is right. Probably neither. I think the main point, and perhaps we agree on this and perhaps we don't (I'm not really sure), is that Peter Wilt does know what he's doing and is always looking out for our (club and fans collectively) best interests. But he isn't perfect, nobody is. I am as hurt as anyone that Peter Nowak is gone, but I feel very optimistic of our future. Everyteam needs to get where we are at eventually. Going from the top to rebuilding. I think (and hope) that we will have done it well and quickly. Time will tell. I am still excited about my Fire. Even without St. Pete.
That's a very good point, and I would like to know who has the $69,999 salary But if we would have been allowed to count only $30,000 of Peter's salary against the cap, then we would have been left with a decision of dumping someone like Evan or Jim Curtin. As it turned out, PW said that we would of had to dump Carlos or Armas. Would it have been worth it to dump Curtin to keep Nowak? Maybe, mabe not -- but keeping Carlos and Chris is a no brainer. Joe -- I fully understand your arguments related to Hristo's contract and our roster problems over the last two years and I don't disagree with the fact that his salary limited what we could have done THEN. But (maybe I'm thick in the head) I just don't see how it effects us going forward. Lets say he took a cut down to $100,000 last year or we didn't have him at all. Then you are right that we would have used that space to sign younger cheaper players. Problem is, going forward we have $0 of Hristo on the books as we speak. Had we used his space for other roster moves, those moves would still be factoring into our problems. Your point about the draft pick to get space to sign Vaudreil is a good one, and one that I hadn't thought of, but at the same time couldn't ANY of our players out injured agreed to give up salary. Arguably a player like Armas who was not coming back for sure last year was more responsible for the problems then players like Hristo and Peter who were hurt (through no fault of their own) but coming back. I'm not suggesting Armas should have agreed to take a salary cut as that would have been pretty cruel considering the summer he had.
see, that's a very stick situation though. would YOU, with a wife and a newborn, reduce your salary in that situation? I probably woundn't. I'm in it for the team, and if we're talking the difference between $5 million and $6 million then I'd have a different take, but at $200K a $30K reduction in salary for example is a 15% pay cut. Voluntarily.
First, Armas hasn't spent two years on the bench. He is younger than Hristo and the expectation is that he will come back and contribute to this team. Only Daniv and Nowak himself could be placed in the "chronically injured" category. Now, it would have nice for Nowak to take a pay cut but really why should he when Hristo won't do so even though Hristo has contributed 1/10th of what Nowak has to this club? That said, the past always affects the future. My point is basically that Hristo's contract locked us into only one possible future given the other circumstances. We had no real options once players started dropping like flies. If we'd had options, things would probably be different today. Now, if we'd spent 100% of what we would have paid Hristo on only one other player, then, yeah, we'd probably be in the same boat as we are in now. But because we locked ourselves into paying Hristo league max to ride the pine, we'll never know what kind of options we'd have had to: A) deal with the injury crises while they happened B) deal with salary cap issues in the off season. Anyway, Hristo's contract was only one of the factors that all combined to put the Fire into such a bind. I blame the league or AEG much more than I blame Hristo's contract, as terrible as that turned out for us. I still don't see how anyone can argue that Hristo's contract didn't affect us and therefore isn't affecting us now.
We all love and respect Nowak but at age 38 and with his injury history it was time to let him go. We may have to bite the bullet this year but at least if we don't make the playoffs we'll get a high draft choice and an allocation. Now Dave and all the young players Jaqua,dipsey and faria might surprise us, if we can stay healthy one year,and win the championship.If we hadn't traded our number one draft choice and we hadn't made the playoffs last year we might have had gonzales or another great draft choice and a foreign allocation, how much better this year we would be, we'll never know.
Well, considering that he was also getting paid his full World Cup bonus from the Federation in addition to his Fire Salary, why not? Personally, I don't think he should have even considered it but you put this one out there. Damn!!! You guys keep screaming hindsight. We knew this was coming. Foresight is what this is all about. We had over a full season to get this one right and we didn't. Hristo isn't a factor into this at all if he's off the books, which I thought was the case. So, why does he factor into what has transpired with the current situation? A big part of the damn problem is the player Budget ~~ technically it isn't a Salary Cap, since that would imply a collective bargaining agreement which would give teeth to the player lawsuit.
Fonsos, We just lost game #3 of the MLS semis to the Galaxy. At home. But in 2002 we can look forward to....rebuilding from a position of relative strength. Is that what you wanted then?
Actually another intelligent response instead of a smart ass ??? would be nice. I know you got a few of them in you.
By that argument, it is Nowak himself who should have taken a pay cut. So you're saying that PW knew in adavance before the 2001 and 2002 seasons that we'd be so injury plagued that even our replacement players were getting hurt? You mean he KNEW all our forwards would get hurt in 2001 and that Jason Moore would get freakin' appendicitis in 2002? Wow. Maybe PW is the devil....
Joe, he knew we'd run into this type of salary problem is what I'm saying, remember contracts do have an expiration date. This problem didn't jsut appear after our last match ~~ thought I got this point across earlier. Hey, PW isn't above negative criticism or questioning and that's what I've done with my initial response, i.e. question. This isn't a question of whether or not he's a good GM. I've stated where I stand in regards to that question. We had over a season to deal with this "storm" and we're soaking ass wet. Why are we wet when we saw this coming, it's the question I'm asking and I think one all Fire fans should ask. Hell, if this was such an obvious solution, I sure as hell wouldn't waste my time on the boards asking the question.
I don't think that in January, 2001 anyone could have predicted that the Fire would be so hogtied in January 2003 with regards to player moves. We all knew we'd have to give up players we'd rather have kept. That's the nature of the league (except in NY and LA ). We ust did'nt know we'd need to give up many option to deal with immediate crises AND that we'd have to go get Ante Razov late in 2001. The whole shebang starts (but hardly ends, of course!) in the offseason before 2001 with Hristo's guaranteed contract that locked us into certain courses of action that have led to Nowak being sent to NE. This is what I'm trying to explain to Chris M. Now, if you want to argue that PW shouldn't have signed that contract in 2001, you'll hardly find an argument here although I'll point out exactly that it seemed a good idea at the time and NOBODY here was speaking out against it at the time. If PW is guilty of lack of foresight so is everyone who was posting in this Fire forum at the time and you know what they say about people in glass houses... Tell me about it. Peter himself will tell you I'm not afraid to speak up when I disagree with something he or Bob have done (ie., the Lagos/Kotschau trade to name but one example) . I'm usually the one on the receiving end of vitriol when I question anything Peter does.
If peter wilt was psychic and could see the future yes he could have done better, couldn't we all. He would have discovered ruiz and traded whatever player necessary the year before and gotten NE's draft pick they used for twellman.
Normally, I would say we should agree to disagree, but I'm not sure we disagree. I completely agree that Hristo's (along with Peter's, Evan's, Chris' etc) contract limited our options last year and prevented us from moves that could have made us better for LAST year's playoffs. Agreed? Now, under the hypothetical that we did not sign a deal with Hristo, that would have freed up roughly $200,000 LAST year. Some would have gone to bigger raises for the likes of Carlos, Evan etc. some may have remained open. Just for the sake of argument, lets say that we had no Hristo and an additional $150,000 under the cap. First, we wouldn't have off loaded Diego -- that was the one salary cap move we made last year. Keeping Diego means we have some money to bring in reinforcements during the injury crisis (meaning that we wouldn't have had to trade a draft pick for cap room to sign DV). Fast forward to the trade of Peter. As it stood, we went form $200,000 of Hristo under the cap to $0. If we off loaded him before last year, we would have had the current cap (minus $1) + Diego + anyone else we would have signed to a contract that would have gone beyond the end of the season. Therefore, we would have to unload not only Peter, but also Diego (or the equivalent in salary) plus who ever else we signed. Hristo's contract clearly tied our hands LAST year, but it had nothing to do with losing Peter Nowak and in fact resulted in the maximum amount of relief that we could have hoped for THIS year. Final point. I wan't suggesting that Armas take a pay cut last year. I never advocate anyone taking a pay cut. I just used that as an example because several people always lay the "pay cut" blame on Hristo. I have always argued that it is the team that agrees to the contract and they should live up to the bargain that they made. Any contract can be structured to provide either incentives for games played or give backs for games missed. There was nothing stopping the Fire from offering a deal that provided HS or PW with $100,000 guaranteed and then provided a graduated pay scale based on actual games played. That way, if it became clear that they would not play in 10-15 games, that money would have been there to sign replacements. In essence, it would be an agreed pay cut if certain games played conditions weren't met. To me, that is a lot more palatable then after the fact telling someone "I know we agreed to a guaranteed $200,000 but we need you to take one for the team." Maybe this was done in negotiations and all the players involved said no. Oh well.
you know, after reading the letter.and then reading some of the replies I was reminded of a simpsons episode... Homer "Extended warranty!! I cant lose!" Once again the glorified used car salesman has pulled the wool over the eyes of all the Chicago Homers.
that wasn't smart ass. smart ass is this: Hey Fonsos, you're SOOOO right that the Fire have a shot in hell at Lane Tech. Now go back to my post. And put yourself in the situation I said. Would you really have supported the fire had they started to dismantle the team in-between the 2001 and 2002 season? I don't think you would have. So along the same lines, you can't say "they've had a year to get this right". Again, you can't win now and plan for the future at the same time.
BECAUSE YOU CAN'T BE A TEAM PUSHING FOR A CHAMPIONSHIP AND A TEAM PLANNING FOR THE FUTURE AT THE SAME TIME. Yet again, you keep saying that we should have either started to dismantle after the 2001 season or during the 2002 season. Well, after the 2001 season would have been dumb because we were still a serious contender for the MLS cup. And during the 2002 season wasn't a great idea in hindsight either, as we were in a dogfight for a #2 playoff seed. Did things work out? No. But then again, you don't hit shots you don't take. You have to give your team it's chances TODAY before you worry about TOMORROW.
Seriously, this year is going to be insanely awesome. New banners, new kits, new coach, new players, new chants, new ball. Re-building right now is the best time possible. p.s. Im in germany right now and last night at a pub some Germany guy saw our Ultras scarf and asked us about the Chicago Sting. Then he gave us a shot of some alcohol that he lit on fire before we drank. I think it was really fitting.
LA Lakers, NY Yankees, Money Utd and San Fran 49ers are a few teams that immediately come to mind as examples of teams that have figured out how to do both. Please, oh please point out where and when I stated such, I've even back tracked this thread to see if I did and I don't recall making such a remark. Hell , I even went so far as to point out how creative PW has been in the past @ working the MLS system (whatever the hell it is) with sole purpose of implying that other options may have been available for keeping most players. Giving your team chances today with very little preparation for tomorrow increases the odds of you being a one hit wonder at best, i.e. Spoken of in the past tense. You pick and choose when to go for broke when it comes to putting together a team, I know that our GM doesn't have such a mind set. Goodness, I hope he doesn't otherwise we better get used to being a second tier club.
You said it right here. With the exeption of the 49ers, these teams do not play in leagues with serious, hard salary caps like we do. In addition, the NFL salary cap is HUGE. I mean, they're talking about punching it up another million or so to a nice round 75 Million dollars per team next year. I'm sure with 75 Million dollars, we could have found a way to keep Peter, Hristo, and signed Ronaldo too. But we don't have that money!
Okay, the man says it can't be done, proved him wrong with a few very fine examples. Now, you go and tell me that because of the limitations, man please!!! You're cracking me up. There is no reason why we or any other team within this league can't operate in a similar scenario. Can you do better than such a weak ass reply? I know you got it in you, take off the Ninja mask (Ref to icon) and you'll be able to see much better. Your explanation is clear. You may be right but this happening was an obvious possibility which was flat out ignored and we're paying the price for it today. I wonder if the possibility of this issue was remotely addressed. Hey!!!!PW, was it? We can end this whole thread with a response to that question from him -- as far as I'm concerned. Again, I'm asking because this letter was put out to the masses. Had it not been put out there, I'm having this conversation with a few close friends instead of the list. However, it's put out there and the first thing most of you do is yap off about how a great a GM we have -- we do have it good GM-- but letting it pass without question is whack and flat out wrong. Not questioning it is s disservice to both the club and fellow fans. Nothing wrong with being challenged. As fans, we don't need to know everything as far as the Business Operations of this club are concerned but if you're gonna tell us then tell it like it is (Aaron Neville ~~ No Yodle) or say nothing at all.
And this is different from every other sports team in the world exactly how? Show me a team that PLANS to miss most of its starting roster AND a few of its replacement players in two years! Nobody does this. This is like arguing that Manchester United should have PLANNED in the 1955 offseason for the Munich air disaster of 1958. It's unreasonable. Face it, the Fire were victims of a wildly improbable circumstance that could not have been predicted before it happened and that the league would not have let us address if we had predicted it. The league had already told us "too bad" when we got Wolff, Beasley and Armas called up and they used the unprecendented and totally, completely and utterly unpredictable plague of injuries to screw us even more. The ONLY thing you can say against PW is that signing Hristo to a guaranteed contract wasn't too bright. If you'd made this case in 2001, your argument that this is all PW's personal fault would be much more credible. But NOBODY ANYWHERE was doing anything but congratulating us when we re-signed Hristo. If PW is an idiot because of this then so is everyone else on the damn planet. As it turned out, it was a disaster for us or at least it contributed heavly to the disaster. Anyway, the possibility of losing half the team was ignored then just as EVERYONE ignores such a thing now and will continue to ignore it until the sun goes freaking supernova. It's too improbable to deal with proactively in a feasible way. Yeah, PW isn't perfect. I've disagreed with things he and Bob have done in the past and gotten blasted for it in this forum. Still, show me the GM you'd rather have than Peter Wilt. *sound of crickets chirping* Well then, case closed. Thanks for your time. See you at the games.
Fonsos you don't say exactly what wilt should have done and when. remember wilt is not the talent evaluator on the fire he lets the coach do that function.If I could see the future I would have let nowak go after his last healthy season.