I know the link show the record for a X player, his better mark. I made a quick research for those players I listed, in some cases, it said they can make the 100m at 11 seconds, in modern players there are more data, some cases have consistent data, in other cases there are disparity (from 30-36 Km/h depending which season) So, being the attribute with "hard data" to make the ratings, I made a "roughly" estimation. I guess, even as a rule of thumb, we can put players in the appropiate tier, with slightest error, in this attribute.
I see the likes of Da Guia, Nasazzi, Rosetta and Quincoces listed as CB/Sweepers. But the likes of Crompton, De Vecchi, Rava and Sesta listed as Lateral Defenders, when all these players played the same role as the previous named, Pyramid Full-Backs, this is, they were Defenders in a Back-Two. A more central than lateral role. I mean, as a second defensive line, they could face outside forwards, but most of their job were focused inside the box área.
In the DM/CM section, I'd suggest these roles for: Jose Leandro Andrade - 1st Right Back, 2nd Central Mid. Victor Rodriguez Andrade - 1st Right Back, 2nd Left Back Didi - 1st Central Mid, 2nd Attacking Mid Cerezo & Falcao - 1st Central Mid, 2nd Deffensive Mid Gambetta - 1st Right Back, 2nd Left Back Pirlo - 1st Central Mid, 2nd Attacking Mid Pirri - 1st Deffensive Mid, 2nd Sweeper Prohaska - 1st Central Mid, 2nd Attacking Mid Szepan - 1st Attacking Mid, 2nd Centreback Vidal - 1st Central Mid, 2nd Deffensive Mid
My last suggestions: Blokhin - 1st LW, 2nd FW Keegan - 1st FW, 2nd RW Boniek - 1st AM, 2nd FW Konrad - 1st RW, 2nd FW Ademir & Greaves - 1st FW, 2nd CF Kempes - 1st AM, 2nd LW Kocsis, Puskas & Schlosser - 1st FW, 2nd CF Riva - 1st FW, 2nd LW btw, I think Cueto could get a 17 in Free Kick and First Touch.
I hope I'm not boring with my suggestions, since it's the database from others: Keepers List: I think there are the main keepers in the list. Right Back List: Moving here --> V.Andrade, Gambetta. I think, it would be interesting include Nelinho for his 20-rating Long Shot Left Back List: Moving here --> Bossis (also CB). I think, it would be interesting include Branco for his 20-rating Long Shot
No you're not! I particularly appreciate the positional changes and addition. We had a lot of trouble classifying older players as CBs or FBs because of the terminology. The 'fullbacks' of the 30s were actually the CBs, so that's why we got a lot wrong. Please keep suggesting flank players. The central areas are completely stacked to the point where we don't really see the point of adding anyone else, unless they offer something very unique (from the top of my head, we're lacking attacking midfielders who might be limited technically, but is very intelligent, which would make them the perfect 'shadow strikers'). The wingers and fullbacks however, are quite bare. Someone like Thomas Muller is a very welcomed addition. He's a pretty unique player to have in the database.
I think I see those about the same, but not Keegan (not RW) and maybe not Kempes (doubtful that LW is better than CF, or FW tbh). I know a lot of the time you know more than me mate, particularly for old-old-timers lol, but yeah maybe these can be debated or cross-checked among other posters as like I say I don't quite see those two the same as you did. Keegan's second/alternative position would be AM I think actually, based on his Hamburg time especially (I'm more thinking of an 'in the hole' type of role, but for England he did occasionally play as a central midfielder in that time too).
I can understand the thinking on Kocsis and Greaves anyway though. Maybe it is a matter of interpretation and trying to place their roles (goalscoring inside forwards) in the modern context, but actually Football Manager seems not to have a specific slot for support strikers so much unless I'm remembering wrong (slightly annoyingly when considering Dalglish, Bergkamp, Cantona etc etc who might be better classed as AMs in that case even....). Boniek can probably have LW, but I agree not over those other two roles (if indeed FW, as in SS, is even relevant in the game). At Juventus, in the Zona Mista, he and then Michael Laudrup too, played as a type of left-side AM basically (verging on support forward, but not support striker), but even then it seems acting more like an AM overall than a true LW. Perhaps Laudrup can have LW himself as not a primary position, but as one in which he's scored well enough so that it shows on his profile. Luckily (though I suspect it could be that looking at his overall rating allocated I'd up it - but that would be expected as I probably rate him on the high side compared to average) from what I remember when looking at his profile I didn't feel there'd be a huge amount I'd alter for Laudrup - his profile seemed satisfactory. For some other of my favourites, like Hidegkuti and Savicevic, I had noticed that while I could bring one or two ratings down slightly, I'd mostly be putting them up (based on realism in my view, not favouritism). So that's maybe where it gets tricky (regarding using FM for drafts too) but I guess it could be that other players (that I don't have favouritism for) could be considered by me to get a bit of an upgrade in their attributes overall too to make them realistic. I haven't looked at a big percentage of the profiles as yet. Like I said on the draft thread, I'd assume that most of the edited players should be 'top few in the world' level if only editing them alone into the game if you know what I mean. Maybe some would suggest in literal terms they might not be, but if evaluating them as they were in their own time (as would be done for a draft I guess if and when people did hold those views) then those people would still probably give them the elite ratings on that basis (taking out the perceived inherent benefits of being a modern player at the least anyway).
There's no problem at all with playing the support strikers in the forward position, as long as you give them a 'support striker' role. Examples of these include the 'deep-lying forward' or 'Trequartista'. The role will see the player drops deep , roams around, and get very involved with the buildup play. You can even have a supportive 'target man' or a supportive 'complete forward' or play a lone 'false nine' with 3-4 runners from midfield to support him.
Ah, yes, I remember now (it's not so long since I used a recent version with all these features for all-time Nottingham Forest lol!). Yes, a typical 4-4-2 (or 4-1-3-2) can be created with no problem it's true for example, and if anything the chosen 'role' might be more influential than position. Sorry for the brain fade. Although I suppose the manager chooses the roles, so it's a matter of making the players as realistic and suitable for the right ones as possible. I did like the features such as those, allowing the manager to define what sort of role the player would play (and being able to change it without changing position even).
It would be. To make it as non-FM-player-friendly as possible, we allow a lot of flexibility. They get to choose the position and role of the starting XI, which as a result, gives us their formation. This way, people can create any sort of tactic they wish: Zona Mista, 424 strikerless (basically 4 players across in the AM bracket) or even a straight looking 442, which is made very sophisticated by say employing 4 playmakers in it.
On Michael Laudrup again briefly: I'd have to check again, but having said I didn't see major areas I'd change for example and thought his profile seemed realistic enough, I probably do think that if we assume we're aiming to edit his Barcelona version (and especially if more 91/92 than 93/94) his pace stats should still be a bit better IMO. More than Zico I would say myself anyway (though not as clearly as if using mid 80s Laudrup).
I think pace above Zico's (which can come down slightly perhaps IMO). Acceleration maybe not, but not really low or anything (this for sure I'd have had at a higher value in the 80s but that becomes irrelevant if we're not creating an ideal player version for everyone with a mix and match of their best attributes from various phases of their career). Zico himself, if we aim for about 1981 version, might be close to his perfect version I guess, although maybe still agility in his case would have been better as a young player in the mid 70s for example.
Certainly not, cos then everyone would be super human. Messi, for example, has less pace than his 09-11 version would suggest. He could have pace 17-18 during that period as he was very fast. However, we think his peak is actually after that, when he's lost his pace, but makes better decision and his passing improved to the point where he's probably the best playmaker in the world, without losing his goal-scoring abilities.
He has become a lesser scorer against the better stages and opponents. Check his open play record against Real Madrid after 2012-13; check his UCL knock out record after 2012-13 (the more so against close to full-strength opponents). Now it can be easily said that this is a case of players not being able to be everywhere at once, rather than losing an ability. That's also true for some greats of the past, who were still able to score 'at will' when challenged (some true anecdotes and stories on that).
I think that's the case. I don't think he's technically a worse goal-scorer just that the team isn't as built around creating as many clear cut chances for him as possible, like it was back in 2012, for example.
It can be that he is (due to the mentioned decrease in pace/acceleration and also agility if not necessarily dribbling) physically less equipped for scoring, while technically just as equipped. So that would mean his shooting attributes and suchlike would not need reducing anyway. Re: the other thread and the draft idea, I am thinking an 18 player squad (although taking longer to draft) would be nice in the sense of giving managers options so that the line-up (and tactics/formation etc etc) could be tinkered with for each game. So it would not only be a different way of 'judging' the teams, but in effect a game rather than just a draft (which could be a nice change indeed). I'm not sure what you think, but maybe the drafter could request a different version of the player in some cases? But then that'd ruin the 'we all know the ratings before we start the draft' idea, so again maybe just best to be open to a majority verdict on which versions of players are included (I guess there wouldn't be a lot of argument but perhaps Messi indeed is an example where 2011 vs 2015 could be argued about for example).
I think that could be a fun idea for a later draft. For this draft, I think because the post-draft phase is so different and complex already, lets keep the drafting phase as simple as possible. Once people are used to playing an FM draft, we can start getting quite creative with the drafting process again, I think.
I cross checked your database list and for the less-stacked positions there are at least 20 stars players to chose from (right or left backs, deffensive mid, right or left wingers), and 5 more solid players, I guess enough for a draft purpose. So I tried to focus in the players that offers that extraordinary skill that make them unique in their role. I.e. Branco and Nelinho, comparables to Roberto Carlos at shooting power. I guess, if needed more lateral than central defenders for this purpose, I understand the idea to have players as Bossis and especially Krol, primarily listed as full backs and not centrebacks.
When I see the international matches, I see him nominally as RW, even he wore the #7, but in the videos he roam a lot, even he played more centrally. More or less as Blokhin in the left. But I agree on your view, since you're more familiar with him In the case of Kempes secondary role, he played LW most often than CF, but maybe at not so high level. Anyway, i see Kempes more as a "false 9" than a static type of CF, I mean, his quality is that he was a fast tank with good technical skills, to have the best of him, he needed start his action from 3/4 of the pitch. About Greaves/Kocsis, yeah I was thinking in the "goalscoring inside forwards", the same role that played a younger Pele or younger Puskas, all of them partnering with a true CF. In that case, I see modeled them as Support Striker or Complete Forward who can play the role of a CF when needed.
Yeah, I can't be sure Keegan never played RW but I think it would be a rare occurance if he did. But him and then Dalglish did both wear number 7 while playing as support forward (the right wingers for Liverpool when Dalglish played were Jimmy Case and then Sammy Lee and then Craig Johnstone). Some teams in English football had started to use non-traditional numbers like that - Bryan Robson also wore number 7 and played in central midfield.
CB List: Maybe I'd include Happel, but the main are listed. DM / CM List: Here I'd include Kada and Nausch, two of the best halves at prewar era. Maybe one more, among Dunga, Haan o Bonhof. @poetgooner , I don't know if you want to include some really old players, alongside Crompton, Schlosser and Meredith. But for the XIX century, I think 3 could be mentioned: - Nick Ross as CB - GO.Smith as FW - Ernest Needham as CM or LB And for the 1910s. - Bloomer as FW - Woodward as FW - Middleboe as DM / CM
Thank you for all the suggestion. I'll look into it this weekend. See if I have enough to actually make their profiles.
There are a couple of threads talking about those three. If you need some full backs, Needham could be modeled as a sort of Wingback, It said that he could be everywhere (deffense and attack by his flank/inside left channel) and doing the job of two men. In case of Nausch, he could be a Left Back too, but since he played in all three positions from Halves Line, he could be labeled primarily as Central Mid. About José Leandro Andrade, in the role of Right Back, he could be a sort of Junior (playmaking full back) with better deffensive skills (tackling and speed) or in the role of Central Mid, a sort of Tigana with better dribbling skills, running for the inside/flank right channel.