For me, Baresi marking Romario is equal to Maldini marking Ronaldo. Yes 19 is high, but then who was better?
I can see what you mean. I'm not defending the attribute, but I do want to explain that most of the attributes are mainly based on 'narrative.' For example, we don't actually know if Puskas is deserving of finishing 20, but because of the narrative, we've given it to him. For marking, Baresi may well be the best marker of all time, we filed him under 'sweeper' so we didn't give him 20 for marking. Instead, the likes of Kohler, Vierchowod and Gentile will probably end up with 20 for marking because of their narrative. I'll bring this up with my friends. Thanks!
Baresi didn't 'mark' Romario in the 1994 final and he had actually problems in containing him in the UCL encounters.
Yeah, something like that. Maybe even determination and composure higher (per that definition) - I'm sure the 1994 game is an example of that although that came after his peak and he had become less consistent by then I think. As said, not sure about marking and tackling. Agreed Potential option for concentration at 20 is prime Maldini imho. "How unaffected a player is by lost focus when making a decision. A player gradually loses focus during a match and the more his focus falls the more likely he is to make a poorer decision. Higher Concentration reduces the rate at which his focus falls." In particular if it also accounts for the relative elusiveness of the task. I.e. shadowing a striker for the entire game is more tangible, with a clearer reference, than the more elusive 'good positioning'.
Yeah I think like PDG says it is at least an 18 and arguably 19 (relative to his era). The value 'pes stats' gave is also not otherworldly but correspondents with a 19. Prime Zidane etc. correspondent with a 20. I struggle to think of someone who was better in his era, maybe only Rivera. George Best playing on the same field: not really. Potentially higher can be: crossing, passing (lower than Matthaus? really?), heading ('jumping reach' stays the same), bravery for sure (why is this only 12?), determination. His career story is one of the epitomes of determination - performing with the odds stacked against you and making a difference. Potentially lower might be his 'decisions' although I'm not sure whether anyone deserves a 20 value. Even the best have months where they make sub-par decisions. People should be wary in conflating the footballer with the overall persona. Think of Simeone; as manager quite possibly an excellent decision maker with a leadership aura and capabilities, but can we project that on the player too?
I'm not sure why you linked that video but it shows a legendary performance. For your information, zonal marking is also marking. What the ucl games are concerned, did Baresi fail in marking or speed or positioning or strength or a combination of what ever abilities? Then decisions 20. This is easy to understand. Just imagine watching a player and telling him what to do. If he does just that or better then he is making the right decisions. Examples could be ; Guardiola, Pelé, your man Platini, or maybe Baresi but it is not that important for defenders.
Marking and tackling will have to come down otherwise his overall ability would be too high, ruining the hierarchy. We marked him for 190 overall ability. If we only increase, he'll enter the Platini level, whom we earmarked to be higher overall player. Do you have some attributes that I can may be lower beyond 'decisions'? Otherwise Cruyff is in danger of reaching 200, which we only earmarked for Maradona, Messi, and Pele. Maradona and Messi, on the surface, are the most skillfull player in the database because players like Pele and Cruyff 'spent' a lot of their ability credits on being good with both feet, which costs a lot of ability points. Having 20 doesn't really mean perfect. Just like in real life, someone with 20 jumping reach may some times lose to someone with 12. Someone with 20 tackling might fail to take the ball from someone with 12 dribbling. Someone with 20 finishing won't score 100% of the time. I think 20 finishing is like 40% conversion rate of 'big chances' over the long run. So 20 decision would simply mean someone who's as good as humanly possible in terms of decision-making. I think a player we earmarked for 20 'decision' is Xavi. He would be the benchmark, and the question is, was Cruyff as good as Xavi at making the right decision?
Can you take a look at the three 70s CMs. They're three big players we wanna get right since they're legends who are always drafted in our game. Personally, I think Hanegem needs much higher marking. No way he is 7 points behind Neeskens. We had to tone it down because we wanted him and Neeskens and Breitner to all be around the same level. Increasing Hanegem's marking would push him over the edge. We already made him very slow lol. I think his passing could come down (passing and vision takes up a lot of ability points for midfielders) but the others insist his playingmaking was world-class.
There is also Gerson and Didi whom I think are underrated, especially the latter. We're just not sure where exactly we should upgrade them:
I should maybe leave it to the Dutch posters, but looking at WvH and JN: Van Hanegem - perhaps finishing, plus off the ball and/or positioning up slightly? Things that could come down might be dribbling and flair I'd think. Neeskens - first touch and tackling seem feasible options to go up slightly. Decisions, plus vision and/or acceleration to come down very slightly? Nothing seems really off to me for Breitner. Personally I'd rate Neeskens as a better midfield player but we all make our own calls. I also always chose an overall rating for each player when I edited these games, but in effect let the computer bring attributes down (or put up) evenly/randomly (one of those or a mix of both I suppose), automatically, rather than aligning the sum of the attributes with the chosen overall ratings. Maybe I even see Breitner as a better midfielder than left-back in literal terms now anyway, while ranking higher among left-backs still, but actually being elite in two different roles would likely push up any overall rating anyway wouldn't it so it might work well in that respect. Personally, I also feel if some players (and not only Pele) are getting 200 ratings, there'd be no reason Cruyff shouldn't. But again an individual call/idea I suppose and it's not for me to dictate it lol, and I suppose I don't have really strong feelings about it - obviously he should be pretty close though, and if his roundedness and two-sidedness did push up his rating while he was seemingly correctly/justly rated in general I definitely feel him having a joint top rating is ok and might work well.
For Didi I have a wider range of ideas for recommended changes (not to say I'd absolutely have picked everything else the same for the Dutch players but like I said I don't think we should be quibbling and ending in impossible arguments about a point here or there, or a slight increase/decrease in an overall rating - although I gave my idea about Cruyff's going up being ok IMO). I think the gap between stamina and strength might be narrowed (from both ends). I might be tempted to switch dribbling and first touch, although I know the speed attributes would restrict the effect of his dribbling anyway, and he was a skilful and elusive mover with the ball (sometimes in combination with passing or dummying to pass, but that's common for a lot of players as if defenders knew they would attempt a dribble they'd be easier to stop or hold up). I see the idea with tackling and positioning, but I'm not sure about either being so low, and I might put them above bravery if anything (but perhaps that could come down a point to facilitate that?). Aggression, determination and leadership could possibly all come down though I'd think. As with dribbling/speed, a lower determination rating might lower the effect of a slightly better tackling rating (in terms of chasing round into challenges etc anyway, which wasn't his style indeed). Finishing and balance both higher I think for sure (certainly the former).
I think finishing and tackling would also be things that can go up for Gerson. I suspect there has been some thinking and observation about Gerson and Didi being likely to score from outside the box (but maybe just outside as opposed to from real long distance?), but while maybe long shots don't have to come down I do think their finishing seems a bit low given their general ball striking accuracy and placement which they could use for shooting too. Also Didi's direct free-kicks might be affected by a low finishing stat if I remember correctly? Maybe for Gerson I'd suggest switching dribbling and balance, or eliminating the gap between them (perhaps meeting in the middle?). Gerson had moments of flair for sure, but 18 does seem too high. Whether vision can come down by 1 say too I don't know, but maybe. Maybe both of these shouldn't be ruled out for 20 Passing though, not that I'm pressing for it or anything (but I assume some players will get it, and these can't be far away from the best ever I guess at it, especially Didi maybe).
Along similar lines, I'm not sure 'resolute' is the best personality type for Didi.... Maybe even more suitable for Gerson out of the two of them? And again maybe Didi's left foot rating can come down enough to not make his preference 'either', but I can see Gerson has been made properly left-sided anyway so it's happening sometimes (I do remember a great right foot goal by him vs Yashin lol after one of his moments of dribbling/flair to go past a defender, but yes in general a definite preference and more capability with the left I'm sure).
First impressions Didi's vision is way too high. He was like Recoba, perfect passes but hardly any throughballs. Breitner was not on par with wvh, only with neeskens perhaps.
Willem van Hanegem Position CM only (not AM nor DM but some proficiency is ok, especially in LM) Midfield General Technical abilities Corners 10 Crossing 15 Dribbling 18 Finishing 14 First touch 15 Freekick 15 Heading 16 Longshots 12 Long-throws 5 Marking 8 Passing 18 Penalty 16 Tackling 14 Technique 18 Mental Aggression 19 Anticipation 14 Bravery 18 Composure 16 Concentration 17 Decisions 15 Determination 18 Flair 16 Leadership 16 Off the ball 15 Positioning 14 Teamwork 18 Vision 17 Workrate 16 Physical Acceleration 14 Agility 12 Balance 18 Jumps 14 Natural fitness 17 Pace 9 Stamina 15 Strength 18
I only raised it 2 points because no one could get the ball from him. He is my father's favorite player.
Ok mate, thanks. Maybe PoetGooner can be looking at good combos for ball retention then. I know in WC74 he was quite old, so maybe not at his best in every respect.
Was it because of his actual dribbling technique? Or was it because of his balance and strength? My concern is that with 18 dribbling, he'll actually be beating people on a too consistent basis. I don't know how good of a dribbler he was, exactly. This is unfortunate, since pretty much the only video evidence we used for Cruyff, Krol, Hanegem, Neeskens, Suurbier, and Rensenbrink were WC74. It's usually a combination of video evidence + what we can read about them (for example, we drastically weaken Duncan Edwards after what we saw on Youtube didn't quite match with what we read.)
Wvh was always capable of beating one player but would most often opt for a pass afterwards because he was too slow to fully shake him. He could easily hold off 2 players. I would like to know what balance and strength really do. From what I recall, strength let a player shoot powerful longshots. However in the current description this is not mentioned. Wvh did not do this but was great holding off opponents, as in the description of strength. This used to be achieved by balance. However in the description it mentions not falling over. Maradona could take a few kicks on the legs but the little man would fall over all the time. Yet he gets 20 for balance. I lowered his balance a bit but still. So according to the descriptions, Maradona should have strength but not balance. Wvh should have both but not shoot cannonballs. How do we make the emulator show this realistically?
Nice ratings. About Cubillas, I'd give his higher ratings on FreeKick, First Touch, Finishing and Technique. About Mental/Physical, I'm not reading all atributes, but he was good shielding the ball, was a aesthetically player to watch (I guess expressed on Flair and Composure), maybe Decisions is a bit lower. When younger he was fast, but not the fastest player and had very good mobility. For Schiaffino, maybe I didn't rating him as one of the best ever on First Touch and Technique. I think his strenght was on his long range passing and his playmaking skills. I'm not sure about Composure, but Vision, Teamwork and Concentration, describe well how decisive and important he could be to turn a result as a great Big Game player. On Physical, Stamina is very low, he was very good on it for his contemporaries, but not as good as modern, better trained, players.
Yeah, I think Schiaffino was more the architect, and Cubillas more the bulldozer (but a stylish top of the range one, with a good engine), probably. I understood Schiaffino to be very well regarded technically (and very assured in general). Maybe 2:54 here vs Juventus helps show it a bit too: Perhaps technique could come down slightly compared to my original idea though. Maybe increasing balance and strength a little would help Cubillas shield the ball, and resist challenges etc. Yeah, maybe free-kicks and finishing could be better too - I wouldn't argue with it. I knew of some famous free-kicks with some good creativity of course. Yeah, my rating for decisions was quite low for a great player, but certainly I don't get the feeling it was a strength of his and maybe vs Brazil in 1978 that seems a bit evident, but maybe it's harsh to use that, even though he seems to play less impressively and less consistently in that one compared to against Scotland, so maybe any 'hidden' consistency value if entered could be average, so that he shone more on a good day but with some variance in performances.
I see no Consistency attribute, but maybe can be expressed by Concentration, Natural Fitness or Stamina or a combo of those. I agree, those could be lower for Cubillas to not afectted an overall rating.
@poetgooner , do you have a Ladder? Some ideas that could help to have a suitable hierarchy, to considering: - An overall ladder for Keeper, other for Defender, Central Mid, AMs and Forwards - A ladder for the 3 main Defensive Skills - A ladder for the 3 main Creative Skills - A ladder for the 3 main Offensive Skills - A ladder for the 5 main Mental attributes - A ladder for the 5 main Physical attributes Which attributes could be considering? Edit. I miss keepers skills as handling, commanding, etc.
We have a ladder for the roles, but not for individual skills. We assign a general overall rating to each tier of players and try our best to represent them while still respecting the ladder. That's why you get some strange looking attributes because players were in danger of falling into the wrong tier. I'm away from home right now, so I don't have access to the ladder, which is saved on my computer. The attributes cost are weighted. So, for example, finishing, pace and two-footedness cost more for attackers, while marking, tackling, and positioning cost more for defenders.