Legends Database

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by poetgooner, Mar 18, 2018.

  1. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Hi everyone, my friends are I usually play a Football Manager game using a legends database. However, we're very aware that our ratings of legends are not very accurate. The legends database out there are much worse in terms of accuracy, so we wanted to create our own.

    We just purchased our copies of FM18 and look forward to playing on that version soon. We want to make our database more accurate.

    This forum has a lot of knowledgeable fans. It would be wonderful if you could help us.

    Our database is here:
    https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B3S2cmjqIgJZWmZkem9XQ0JmVmM?usp=sharing

    For more information on the attributes in FM, you can find them here. Note that each attribute is rated 1-20:
    Player Attributes | Football Manager 2018 Guide

    Mostly, we need help with 3 things:
    1. Mental attributes. There is almost no information of how good old legends were at things such as 'anticipation' 'determination' 'composure' or 'concentration'.
    2. The different moves that make a player unique.
    3. Forming some sort of hierarchy, such as Player A must be > to Player B. However, since the attribute rating system is only out of 20, a lot of older legends have equal ability. There are a number of players with 19-20 in dribbling or passing, for example, as it is very difficult to separate between them.

    The positions they play is also rated out of 20, but you can't see it. You can see the visual representation though. Orange = weak, Yellow = average, light green = good, dark green = accomplished, bright green = very good or natural.

    For more information on 'Players Preferred Moves' you can find them here. Keep in mind that these are moves that said players prefer to do, and not necessarily what they're best at, although the two are usually the same:
    Player Preferred Moves | Football Manager 2018 Guide

    We are open to any feedback, although do provide some justification for your suggestion. We're also happy to add new players to the database if you think we missed out on any legends of the game. We're sure we have! However, we're not looking to create a 2000 player database. It's roughly 450 right now, and we could go up to 500. We wouldn't want any more than that, as there's usually only around 15 of us playing, which with 20 players each, is only 300 players picked.

    Some sample of the players:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Jun 11, 2012
    Interesting thread. I haven't played fm much past its cm days but I still analyze players in a similar way.
    From the pictures above, Matthäus' concentration is too high. He had lots of bricks/airballs in his passing.
    Cruijff's decision making is also too high. Especially late career he just takes chances dribbling without creating anything, while his teammates are unmarked.

    I'll see if I can make a set or two. Do you have a list of the preferred moves?
     
  3. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    All the players in the database can be found in the google drive link above.

    All the attributes and it's explanation and all the players preferred moves can also be found in the links above.

    All players are rated according to their peak (giving an advantage to peak players like Ronaldinho).

    Cheers!
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    For Baresi I'd suggest:

    Possibly higher dribbling and/or technique

    Possibly not perfect 20 for all of concentration, teamwork and natural fitness (could think it reasonable to reduce any/all of those but I know sometimes it's hard to reflect legendary defenders advantages)

    Probably higher acceleration, and slightly pace too I think

    For Matthaus:

    Lower passing I'd suggest

    Higher acceleration and pace

    For Cruyff:

    Maybe his acceleration on the other hand could come down very slightly, without lowering pace (not necessarily moving his acceleration below Matthaus's though)

    Higher crossing and passing for me (moving his passing above Matthaus's certainly)
     
  5. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Cheers. Natural fitness doesn't really matter at all, since we reset everyone to 100 percent fitness before every game in our tournament.

    What ratings would you go for Baresi's concentration and teamwork? Keep in mind that 'teamwork' here doesn't just mean being unselfish, but also how well the players execute the team's and his tactical instructions. He was the team's tactical leader, wasn't he?

    I certainly agree his acceleration should be higher. Been arguing with my friends on this lol.
     
  6. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Jun 11, 2012
    The files are too large to upload so I'll type it up.
    Maradona vs Pelé
    Moves
    Moves into channels x2
    Runs with the ball often vs dictates tempo
    Places shots vs hits free kick with power
    Technical abilities
    Corners 15-10
    Crossing 18-18
    Dribbling 19-18
    Finishing 16-19
    First touch 20-18
    Freekick 19-12
    Heading 20-16
    Longshots 14-17
    Long-throws 8-1
    Marking 3-8
    Passing 19-16
    Penalty 17-17
    Tackling 10-10
    Technique 20-19

    Mental
    Aggression 18-13
    Anticipation 16-20
    Bravery 19-15
    Composure 19-18
    Concentration 18-16
    Decisions 10-20
    Determination 17-18
    Flair 20-20
    Leadership 17-13
    Off the ball 17-19
    Positioning 5-8
    Teamwork 19-19
    Vision 19-17
    Workrate 8-12

    Physical
    Acceleration 19-18
    Agility 17-20(reversed)
    Balance 19-17
    Jumps 11-19
    Natural fitness 17-17
    Pace 14-19
    Stamina 15-15
    Strength 13-15
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    LOL at the bizarrely low rating for first touch. But then again, my principal problem has always been how it all relates to each other, that the dominant assumptions are contradicting. With people like Dearman and other folks who place only one player (Cruijff) in the top 7 for the 1974 and 1978 World Cups. But who is then the real underdog player? And why is suddenly 'teamwork advantage' the rabbit pulled out of the hat when both the team mates as well as his own decisionmaking/leadership is suddenly put into question? The anti Dutch tendencies by the masses, liars and lemmings are so damn obvious. All those premises contradict each other. That is the real issue.
     
  8. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Most of the ratings are just based on us watching some videos. We never really saw footage of Cruyff making those beautiful control touches like a Bergkamp or Zidane, so we went with 17, which is still very good. We're just trying to recreate players on the FM engine to have fun man, no agenda here.

    We went with 20 Decisions and Teamwork (a controversial decision) mostly because this one guy keep insisting that he's the most cerebral player ever, and this was our way of interpreting it.

    By the way, Cruyff overall rating is already 197 out of max 200 on the game's system. Only the likes of Pele and Messi (both at 200) have higher overall ratings.
     
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  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Reading the description for teamwork maybe I'd not be absolutely against Baresi having 20 no, although could be a couple lower perhaps.

    I suppose it could get difficult if we all try to make minor adjustments to each others ideas (like a PES stats page maybe!) but looking at your Pele/Maradona numbers annoyedbyneedoflogin I might have a couple of obvious questions:
    - Firstly I'm thinking maybe you just entered the heading numbers the wrong way round by accident? I'd not be completely adamant/convinced about Pele having a maximum 20 even maybe, but I'd assume he's at least a few above Maradona for that one.
    - Pace - I think I'd be leaning towards them being much closer for that (although see the idea about giving Maradona a slightly higher acceleration, and it being feasible that on outright pace Pele can be ahead even though I don't think I went with him ahead when I tried this myself a long time ago now). Probably I'd be assuming that neither Cruyff or Maradona were behind, or significantly behind Pele for this although it's true he was a fast player in his prime when he sprinted, and sometimes he could move past slower players with the ball - there have been faster players though I'm sure.

    And yes I think Cruyff's first touch can be right up towards the top end. If you were looking to knock something down a bit I'd say maybe strength which I'd have thought might be reasonably below Baresi's (but it could be Baresi's might go up even, although not a lot I think). Among Dutch players I'd assume Neeskens stronger than Cruyff (but not as strong as Matthaus probably; maybe Neeskens roughly level with Baresi?) but Cruyff stronger than Rensenbrink probably.
     
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  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Although I did have a quick go more recently after PoetGooner started a different thread I remember now! The computer I used isn't in use now though, although I can access the hard drive with a caddy but probably not worth looking into it and posting all the stats I used

    Actually, eventually I made a thread myself I remember now. Playing the games seemed to be working well in terms of making the players act realistically (although maybe partly it is the mind inserting the actual versions we know into the game....but as long as that effect isn't cancelled by unrealistic stats, then great I suppose). The preferred moves in the new versions probably do help with that too, as well as getting height etc about right (maybe PoetGooner doesn't want to actually 'watch' the gameplay anyway though, so it's more the effectiveness of the players that matters):
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/heavens-xi-vs-earths-xi.2030358/page-2#post-33780351
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Ok cool. I have no real issue with those separate things, nor the higher overall rating for Pele, more that in general the underlying premises/calls often contradict quite a bit.

    Where does it show the overall ratings?
     
  12. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    We watch all the game :geek:

    We set up a knockout tournament and have a blast for about a month playing it.

    Height is purely aesthetics in this game, just like weight. There is no difference in aerial ability between someone who is 200cm and someone who is 160cm as long as they have the same attributes.
     
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  13. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    For sure, there are some inconsistencies. I know we had a lot of problem trying to maintain some kind of hierarchy.

    For example, we wanted to Puskas > Romario and MvB in terms of finishing, but we're not sure if there's a difference between Romario and MvB. What about someone like Batistuta? In the end, Puskas ended with 20, and those 3 on 19, even though we felt like there should be a difference, but if any of them drop down to 18, they'd be on the same level as other striker we think are clearly inferior to them in terms of finishing.
     
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  14. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Jun 11, 2012
    Maradona is 20 for heading. I've never seen another player completing a cross from the side with his head. And Diego did it twice. This does not mean that he will win aerial challenges because his other stats are not up to it. If you recall an instance where his accuracy was off, then speak out.

    Pelé had some impressive numbers with athletic dashes. I don't recall which distance or what his pb was.
    However, when he dribbled past midfielders, he could not be caught any more. Maradona already has more balance, acceleration and dribbling. Effectively that brings him closer but his topspeed was never impressive.
     
  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Interesting - you've obviously seen some impressive header-work from Maradona. It was more an assumption on my part that he can't be up there, and typically it seems PES stats users make the same assumption, but the description for header attribute is heading accurately to the intended target (still players like Kocsis and Van Basten would score very well on that basis I'm sure anyway). With what PoetGooner says in mind about height not really affecting affectiveness, I do wonder even if we came to understand and agree on Maradona's heading accuracy, whether the game will decide anyone with a 20 rating for heading will be scoring quite a lot of headers, but I'll leave others (including PoetGooner's friends) to consider and debate that one.

    Going back to the profiles shown in the OP, it's hard I know because even putting a difference between right side and left side, if the left side (for a right footed player) is given a decent enough value the preferred foot text will say 'either', but certainly I'd only really see Cruyff as two-sided to a good extent out of the 3 concerned. I think left foot would have to go to 14 or below to change Matthaus and/or Baresi to right-sided players? I'd probably tend to think it should be done, but it could be that's a decision regarding all players and not these specific ones - how low to rate the 'wrong' side.
     
  16. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I would say we have the most problem with the defenders, strikers, and the attacking midfielders, since those ones are filled with older players.

    For example, we have no real idea how to rate Wright, Dean or Cubillas for example.
     
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Without looking at the full database yet (so not seeing the current values for these players, or the general standards for these legends as things stand), and leaving preferred moves for now, here is a quick estimation of a comparison between Cubillas and Schiaffino, using annoyedbyneedoflogin's template above:

    Cubillas (AM (C), Fwd (C)) vs Schiaffino (AM (C), Fwd (C), CM, AM (L))
    (Right footed)..........................(Right footed, but perhaps 'two-sided')


    Technical abilities
    Corners 14-16
    Crossing 12-17
    Dribbling 17-16
    Finishing 15-17
    First touch 18-19
    Freekick 17-17
    Heading 14-12
    Longshots 14-13
    Long-throws 8-4
    Marking 7-9
    Passing 15-18
    Penalty 16-17
    Tackling 10-9
    Technique 17-19

    Mental

    Aggression 15-12
    Anticipation 16-16
    Bravery 15-13
    Composure 17-19
    Concentration 13-17
    Decisions 13-18
    Determination 15-14
    Flair 18-17
    Leadership 14-17
    Off the ball 13-17
    Positioning 12-16
    Teamwork 16-18
    Vision 14-19
    Workrate 14-13

    Physical

    Acceleration 17-13
    Agility 17-17
    Balance 16-17
    Jumps 15-12
    Natural fitness 17-14
    Pace 15-14
    Stamina 15-13
    Strength 15-12
     
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  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #18 PuckVanHeel, Mar 19, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
    I can understand that his first touch is not quite there with Zidane etc. but 17 is absurdly low next to the group who are on 16. For example this scene here and this here when controlling a goalkick while still fresh.
    Often there seems to be the a priori assumption that he should have a lower overall rating than Havelange and Grondona protege Maradona. I disagree with that, and despite decades of lemming pandering corporate media propaganda, the likes of Don Balon, SportBild, L'Equipe, IFFHS and others had the same idea. As said, fine to only rate one NLD player among the top 7 for the 1974 and 1978 tournaments, but who is then the real one man band and underdog player? Someone who achieved a high points per game at all levels (continental, domestic) and yes, whose teams suffered in results when shamelessly pushed out of the game.

    Maybe you should lower his perfect 20 rating for tackling and increase his technical attributes. I agree he was maybe the best ever defender among the sweepers, but arguably still not perfect 20 level.

    I understand that you say he was their tactical leader, but you can't rule out the influence of the three Dutchmen on those tactics and slightly later even someone as Albertini in midfield who kept it all together. Baresi's 'leadership' and perseverance attributes are overall correctly rated.
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #19 PuckVanHeel, Mar 19, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
    Penalty taking looks relatively high on 18. He has a history of forfeiting important penalties, not the least the 1990 WC final, where he declined to take the winning penalty. There are a couple other big ones that he refused to take. As well as missing them such as in the 1984 and 1999 DFB Pokal finals. Excluding the shoot-outs he converted 65/72 in his career.

    Maybe positively reconsidering his balance and long shots. Don't know how his long shots rating compare to other midfielders. Balance looks low; he was very strong next to similarly sized players.

    edit: higher 'aggression' perhaps, per the 'Football Manager' description of this attribute.


    [​IMG]


    The emphasis should be imho on leadership and concentration type of things (well done), less so on defensive attributes (19 for marking and 20 for tackling looks high). His technical attributes might be a bit higher. Maybe also his vision actually, although he has already six 20 values and some other high ones.
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    There's the scene where he takes the ball with his heel for Ajax too, but also looking at him in general in World Cup 1974 and games like the Italy one from the same year (plus 1980s highlights even if irrelevant to 'peak' version overall) would IMO indicate his technique values should be high and also a first touch of 19 would seem better than 17 to me (18 might be ok though maybe, or 19 with a not perfect or extremely close to perfect consistency value if that is still entered in the editing phase on this version which I assume it is).

    Visual references for 'in form' Cubillas and Schiaffino, to help form own opinions maybe:
    http://footballia.net/matches/peru-scotland
    (There was at one point a Cubillas vs Scotland Youtube video which I watched although I didn't watch the full game, but maybe some highlights at some stage only; signing up is easy enough and free on that site)

    (I know that one is brief)
     
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  21. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Is 'First Touch' the only thing that would need changing for Cruyff? Would 18 be sufficient, or is he deserving of 19?
     
  22. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Tackling: 20 -> 18
    First touch: 13 -> 14
    Vision: 12 -> 14
    Passing: 13 -> 14
    Strength: 14 -> 16

    ?
     
  23. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Among defenders, who would you say deserves '20' for the following attributes?

    Tackling, Marking, Positioning, Anticipation, and Concentration? These are the main defensive skills.

    Then who would be a tier below that at 19, and at 18?
     
  24. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Jun 11, 2012
    How is Baresi not worth of 20 for marking? Did anyone ever get below his radar?
     
  25. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Marking is the physical act of getting tight on the opposition. My friends and I thought he relied more on his positioning and anticipation. Beside, 19 is already very high.

    Is Baresi truly a GOAT marker?
     

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