It's nice to see you take a balanced view on this topic I'm curious. How do you think the Israeli/Palestinian problem should be resolved? For instance, should the Israelis totally withdraw from the Occupied Territorities, partially withdraw, or maintain the status quo?
No ones perfect VW. Not the Zionist and in thise case, not no one.... Its the basis of all arguements in this forum. My hero's are your terrorist. For many Israeli's, the Zionist groups in Israel back in the 1920's were a group of people who protected the civilians from an onslaught of the arabs, who asked to pick a fight....... The British promised the Israelis protection and we didnt get it, so we relied on our own Self Defence... Propoganda!!! Sharon did not instruct the Phalangist to go in and kill. Sharon did not plan anything out for a killing. Sharon however didn't realize the extent of the Assasination of Gamayel, in September 1982, that would have on the Phalangist taking revenge... So how is he guilty if at anything? Its like the cop knows that a certain neighbourhoods in your city is bad, and there is a killing. The Cop didn't instruct the killing, probably could have stopped it, but did not have the leads too..... Your propoganisti' took this to the Belgian court and Sharon won!
My solution: A peace agreement will be dealt... A Palestinain state would be made up of 90% of the West Bank and all of the Gaza strip. The remaining 10% of the west bank will be for already exisiting settlements in areas that would create a problem for Palestinains to commute and many of the settlements would be taken down and removed into other settlements or into israel all together.......... the 10% of the land would be used for settlements/defence and border issues.... Israel will make in return a road that connects Gaza with West Bank for its viability.. Refugee return to Israel: 0 Workers of Palestinain origin alloweed to work in Israel: in the basis of years, lets say in the first year of the peace neogtiation, about 25,000 can get permits, and then in 5-10-15 years, it can be 70,000-100,000-125,000 and so on respectively!!! And we shall prosper
How do you know what my stance is? Why don't you answer a single question I've asked you? Its rare to see moderators actively troll. It should have been resolved decades ago by a non-violent Palestinian movement. Israel has shown more reluctance to mistreat Palestinian than any other occupier in history. They clearly have no interest in murdering Palestinians. So if the Palestinians had resort to a Gandhi-like approach, or an MLK like approach, they'd have had their state decades ago. Sadly, they go Arafat. How should be resolved now? As soon as Palestinians make a serious effort to halt the violence, I believe a return of general autonomy to most of the West Bank and Gaza is the best idea. With real borders, too. If that means Gaza and the West Bank aren't contiguous - tough. Gaza was originally Egyptian. I'd be happy if Egypt took it back. Depends on what the Palestinians do. A unilateral withdrawal in the face of a hostile Palestinian state which believes it can still get all it wants would be suicidal.
I just asked what wars the Palestinians had ever started. Hardly "active trolling", I'd say. You, on the other hand, opened up the whole can of worms with your friendly post:
So seeing how you did not address the answers provided to your question, I take it you've satisfied your curiosity?
The religious wackos who settle in the wasteland because an ancient book of myths implies that it is "holy" should definitely go. Religous extremism is religious extremism, no matter whether it's a gun-toting Akhmed or a beard-shaking Mordechai. The Palestinian state should be established, giving Israel a figure of authority to negotiate with. The Palestinian state must prove to be an efficient law-enforcement body, actively and successfully opposing terrorists. Israel must negotiate with the Palestinian state on issues such as borders, migration, Palestinian labor in Israel and the status of Jerusalem. Once solid, friendly relations are established, Israeli military presense in the West Bank and the Gaza strip is no longer necessary. They become two neighboring nations, which is ever so nice. Just like China and Mongolia.
That's not actually friendly. Of course, you've followed up by making odd assumptions and posting seemingly random statements without actually providing any answers. If I just kept making posts irrespective of what others have answered, that'd be trolling. I'm just wondering how denying basic facts like Palestinians starting a war after Israel declaring independence should be treated. (And then bringing up Sharon and King David for no apparent reason.) Hell, even Sardinia won't dispute that. But at any rate, I think I've asked you enough questions at this point; care to answer any of them? Any? At all? (This one doesnt' count, btw.)
I'm no expert, but my impression of the Palestinian 'response' is that it's a three-fold issue: 1) the best and brightest (read: educated, secular, moderate) of Palestinian society have long lived in exile all over the Middle East. Their absence in numbers (not many white-collar jobs in refuge camps and ghettos) has been sorely missed in a society which has given in to the worst excesses of extremism; 2) Palestinian rage at their lack of control over their destiny (the old cliche--which has a lot of truth in it--about violence being a response to a sense of powerlessness) and their sense of victimization seem to have fed off decades of apocalyptic rhetoric (once nationalist, now fundamentalist/relgious) so that the entire society seems constantly peering over the abyss, unable to back away because any hint of comprimise would seem to negate the struggle up until now; 3) anti-Semitism, plain and simple. Palestinian society, like much of Muslim society, has shamefully nurtured and milked this tired old warhorse for a long time now. Easier to blame the evil Jews than to look at corrupt Arab regimes which exploited the Palestinian Arabs for their own good, or at the failure of post-occupation Palestinian society to produce civic institutions which could credibly challenge Israeli moral authority, or even sensibly--without racism, Jew-hating, or overheated rhetoric--critique the less savory aspects of the settler movement or the Zionist project (as opposed to the 'existance of Israel'). Just my $0.02.
Obviously the issue is complex. Its not like Palestinians can turn on a switch that allows them to be a peaceful nation. But the fact remains that they chose to respond to the threat of a few hundred thousand Jews settling down in a tiny sand dune infested backwater with violence. Actually, many of these are back. The Palestinians never formed the core of Arab intellectualism in the first place, however. Much of that was Lebanon and Damascus. Although the Baath party now evokes images of Saddam's shower, its origins were in an intellectual Arab socialist movement of the 40s and 50s. However, many of Arafat's supporters like, say, Abbas, are back. Many never left, since they had too many interests in Israel in the first place. The Palestinians were living in refugee camps in the time of the British; this wasn't a new phenomenon, either. Those weren't the groups that ran from the Israeli forces; they would not have been living in villages. Well, can't argue with that. This is unfortunate, but I think quite a bit of the blame has to be apportioned to other Arab regimes. Its a lot easier to provide money to widows and mothers of suicide bombers than to actually provide substantive aid and solve the problem. Plus, it focuses attention from their own domestic ills. Its amazing how concerned Saudis are about an insignificant speck on the Levant when their population is growing out of control and the economic future is looking bleak thanks to Wahabism and their corrupt rulers. Can't argue with that, although I wouldn't make it the primary reason.
Agreed. But it's probably easier for Israel to turn on a switch and become a nation that respects separation of sinagogue and state and remove those few hundred Jews from the sand dune despite of their claims of the dune's holiness.
Aside: Bagabandi cozies up to China because any weak nation that shares a border with China and has half a brain cozies up to China. The Mongolian people on the whole hate the Chinese. I think I've shared this story here before, but here I go again: I have a friend who lived in Mongolia back when the US bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade. Anyone who's white in Mongolia and doesn't look Russian is automatically assumed to be American. My friend was literally being stopped on the street several times a day by Mongolians who wanted to shake his hand because his nation killed citizens of China. But yeah, other than that, Mongolia and China are great pals.
Mongolian music is great though, and gottal love the hats! Meeting some Mongolian musicians was my best experience in Amsterdam. Oh and they speak Russian. Communist brotherhood and all that I wonder if they're actually related to Chenghis Khan's people, or if they just share a name?
If it weren't for my friend and the fact that I lived there myself for a time I never would've had reason to suspect such a relationship between Mongolia and China. I've also come to realize that almost no one else does, either.
I appreciate your entire response, but I just wanted to reassure that I quoted your post as step-off point for my own ideas. I wasn't trying to imply that you were simplifying the situation--I just thought you were giving me a nice lead-in. Oh, and have you been to the "Al-Jazeera is a Zionist plot" thread in the last few minutes? Apparantly I'm a whiny-ass little baby. Life sucks when IntheNet is telling you to buck up!
Tibet, Ireland, East Timor, South Africa, Rwanda, Sudan, Iraq....oppressed peoples are everywhere, throughout the globe, throughout history. But none are as annoying as the god-damned Palestinians. I guess that's why they come with a self-destruct switch.