I am really getting troubled by how football in Korea has been lately. Of course naturally these thoughts have just begun to escalate fast after Korea's 1-0 and 3-1 losses to Vietnam and Oman, but it's been in back of my mind as far as couple months ago. Let's see some of the troubles that we are experiencing right now: 1.) Horrible form from the senior national team: well we lost to Vietnam and Oman, enough said. Although the team was mostly made of domestic players in these matches, there is no way to excuse them from these results. Both the mentality of the players and bad coaching has to take the blame here. This dates back even further all the way back to the Columbia match, though... I don't think our NT have had a truly impressive performance ever since the new year began (vs Japan is an exception, but they were a weakened side. I suppose we were alright against Argentina, but they were also a "B" side. We were horrible against Uruguay), and our chronic problem of not finishing in front of the net has been more prominent than ever before. We also must learn how to play better away from home as well. I heard that KFA are putting on an emergency meeting to discuss the state of the affairs in the Korean football, and it's about damn time. I hope these losses against Vietnam and Nepal are going to be the wakeup call and that we will perform better by the time Asian cup rolls around. 2.) Struggles of our Foreign-based players: Gosh where do I start here... it seems as though every one of our foreign players have been struggling as of late. - Song Chong-Gug have been relegated to the bench after struggling big time ever since the start of the season, even though he's not suffering from any injuries or anything (strange, as he is usually very consistent). - Park Ji-Sung. After an impressive Peace cup performance, he is now really struggling and has been relegated to the bench. Seems like he has lost all his confidence. - Lee Chun-Soo, as impressive performances as he may be showing in his rookie year in Real Sociedad, is failing to do one critical thing for a forward; scoring goals. If he fails to score in next couple games, he may run out of his chances. - Cha Doo-Ri, although starting game in and game out, haven't scored a goal in the domestic play yet. You can attribute it to the fact that Frankfurt are a crappy team and that he has weak support from the teammates, but it's still inexcuseable for a forward to start that many games and not have one single goal. - Seol Ki-Hyeon, although he had been playing okay, is now injured and our for couple months. Ko Jong-Su have completely failed in Japan and he may never recover. Yoo Sang-Chul and Choi Young-Soo has been consistent, yes, but not spectacular. Kim Eun-Jung have seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth (I'm not hearing anything about how he is doing in Japan). - Guys like Lee Eul-Yong and Kim Nam Il, have failed with the European teams and has since returned to K-league. So the only guys that have been pretty consistent overseas have been Lee Young-Pyo and Ahn Jung-Hwan. Everyone else is really struggling one way or another. 3.) Our youth teams are really struggling as well. The olympic team gave poor performances against Hong Kong in the preliminary rounds (mostly because of Kim Ho-Gon and his lack of logic, tactics and intelligence in coaching, people say), and if they don't come around, they may follow in the footsteps of the Senior team and completely collapse. This combined with the fact that we got Iran and China lurking around for the next round, I've never been more worried about our chances of getting to the olympics. We all know about the complete collapse of the U-17 team in the world championships... big disappointment... and our U-20 team doesn't look too good either for the upcoming world championships as well with various injuries are happening within the team (and major players at that, Choi Sung-Kook and Jung Jo-Gook comes to mind). So, the things haven't been looking too good for Korean football as of late. The scary thing is that all of this is happening so fast, only a bit more than a year since our glory during the 2002 world cup. What do you guys think is going on and needs to be fixed? Is it just a one big coincidence of misfortune or was this predictable from your eyes? Let's discuss.
I think we should all admit that we over-achieved during the world cup .. home support and all that. But the problem is that the stupid fools we have for players aren't mentally consistent. Either too high or too low. Against good teams with good reputation they're too timid and don't show any resilience. Only when they actually concede 2-3 goals do they actually play hard and aggressive. Perfect example is against Germany in '94 .. went down 3 soft goals, and only THEN did the players attempt to do anything, result? 3-2. And in the previous match went down two soft goals to spain and then started playing, resulting in 2-2. If only they played hard all the time we wouldn't get called "cheats" and would be deservedly in the top 20 of the world .. Against worse teams the players think that winning is a god given right. Therefore they get their asses handed back to them by lowly teams like Vietnam .. no disrespect to the Vietnamese, because a win's a win whether you win ugly or pretty. The problem (imho) is the character of the Korean people. Don't take this wrong, but it really shits me the way that they go about things .. remember how Hiddink got treated before the world cup? Weren't a lot of people calling for his head? And then after the world cup you get over the top accolades .. it was embarrassing to see the ceremony where everybody and his brother associated with the coaching staff got an honorary citizenship. Do you think that Hiddink's going to care after the way he was treated earlier? Likewise the players believe the hype in the media about how great they are .. prime example is Chun-Soo. If I had the chance I'd give him a thrashing he'd never forget, the arrogant git. More focused on looking pretty than actually doing something useful on the pitch. Until such time as they can learn to not to believe the hype and to work hard all the time Korea will not deserve to be called a good football nation. There's my 44 Million pissed off 2-cents .. discuss
Yea, I thought all the foreign based players had great hope for the season but all of them aren't doing too well. When you watch PSV games, Park looks way too nervous and discouraged to take the ball in himself or to take a shot at goal, and Lee is ok at times but still struggles as a really strong defender - resorting to many fouls. I've only seen CS Lee once the other day and he didn't seem like he was anywhere close to the skills of his teammate Kahveci. I don't think the last 2 NT losses are too much to worry about because theyre probably flukes, but the last 6-7 friendly matches against some quality teams were pretty bad... I worry because the BEST of our players just can't compete in Europe...
Disscusion of struggling against third tier Asian teams? I think we're analyzing and thinking about this subject a little bit too hard here. No harsh feelings against the over-achievers: Oman and Vietnam here, but I am sure there are plenty of Korean highschool teams that could probably beat Oman and Vietnam. Whose to blame? Nobody. Players such as Kim Dae-ui (note that Anyang's head coach Jo Gwang-rae said that he lacks international experience, not skill) could easily give Euro-based players competition on the National squad. Our K-league all-star team might not get the job done as we want them to but hence the name: "ALL-STAR" team. Give Humberto and our domestic players some time and we might actually see those struggling Europeans benched on the National squad.
Iranian fans often show great respect to S.Korea's football team. In that regard, I am an exception among our fans, as I give South Korea its due but no more. To be sure, I rooted for S.Korea in WC02 more than any other team. That was partly because I had picked S.Korea and Japan both to advance to the round of 16. And I felt that S.Korea had done this in convincing manner. Afterwards, of course, some controvery began entering the fray. I felt you had earned your quarterfinal berth, despite the gripes by the Italians against the referee. The victory over Spain, however, clearly went overboard in my opinion, as the Spanish were indeed robbed in that match. Personally, I believe S.Korea would have been better off exiting in the quarterfinals with only the Italians bitching about it, then finishing 4th and have many other netural fans join the fray. In fact, after "beating" Spain on penalties in the quarterfinal, South Korea lost its other games to Germany and Turkey -- the latter the same team that also defeated Japan in an earlier stage. In general, I believe S.Korean fans are in some way similar to our own. They can't hold a steady and clear idea about their team -- or that of their opponents. They vacilate too much between unsupported bravado or intense self-criticism. The same way they vacilate too much in their attitudes towards coaches, with a similar schism as in Iran with regard to the merits of foreign versus domestic coaches. All this is a sign of insecurity, at least imho. By my count, S.Korea has some very good qualities in general, and clearly lacks some others. Although there are some real footballing problems with your side, with some skills not very strong among your players, one of the most important qualities S.Korea misses is in fact psychological: you don't, imho, have a <B>champion's </B><U>mental stamina and fortitude</U>. S.Korea, again like Iran, does its best in some intense emotional situations. Like when it plays Japan. Or when it is hosting an event like the World Cup, with the entire nation collectively joined in supporting the team in one common endeavor. For some reason, however, and <I>repeated World Cup qualification notwithstanding</I>, S.Korea has not shown a champion's fortitude at all. Hence, <U>no Asian Cup titles</U> in more than 40 years, and no wins in the World Cup outside your own turf. I end this long message by pointing out two things that have stood out the most about S.Korea's record through the years -- and which are missed by those who only know about S.Korea's repeated World Cup qualification: 1) S.Korea has almost always been <I>one of the best</I> in Asia, but seldom has been the very best. In the 1970s, S.Korea was behind Iran but right up there as one of the best; in the early 1980s, S.Korea was again up there but behind first Kuwait and then Iraq; in the early to mid 1990s, it was Saudi Arabia that stole the show for Asia, with S.Korea again up there but not quite as good. Thereafter, for a while, it was Iran which seemed the best in Asia; and then it was Japan's turn. 2) Like all Asian teams, S.Korea also has had trouble with the 2nd and 3rd tier sides in the continent on some occasions. Don't fool yourselves: losing to Oman and Vietnam, although unexpected and clear upsets, isn't unique and unprecedented. There are too many losses to recount here, but as a sample, let me note that S.Korea has lost to teams like Malaysia, Thailand, Bahrain, and some others with unfancied names, in many important tournamnets in the past. That is not including sides like Kuwait, which have often defeated the Koreans. Or the Saudis, against whom the Koreans haven't done all that well either. Please don't take unnecessary offense by my message. None is intended. I am sharing what I believe to be true. And I do so as someone who admires many other qualities about your football team, which hopefully I will share later.
nice post. outside of the world cup there isn't much else to jump up and down about in Korea's nat team history, although I will say that there is a lot of potential for Korean soccer. However there is one area that is more important than any other imo that Korea is screwing up. Grass roots soccer. In other words kids football, decent fields, and opportunities to play the game. I only really have my city of Anyang to go by. But looking out my window now I can see about half of the city of 750,000 people. There are about 5 dirt fields in the entire area I can see. But you can't actually use them since only one is public and it and the others are either used by the schools or else ajushis (ie 35+ year old guys who stumble around the pitch dreaming of glory) who hog them all weekend. So 350,000 people divided by 5 equals 70,000 people per field. But again bear in mind that you can't actually use them in the weekends since old guys have them nailed down. I guess the kids can always play on the street though in the 3 second intervals between cars.
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Just checked out our roster and I feel better. But we seriously have to do something about scheduling conflict. Once our U-23 qualifies, it will have 3 overaged players in addition to euro-based U-23 players. Olympics starts only a week after Asian Cup. So no player can play for both AC and Olympics. How are we going to do this? anyone?
Solution: Since everyone is blaming the lack of experience of domestic based players, we use the Asian Cup as a tool for these guys to get some more experience. If we don't win the asian cup: big deal. If we win: we show what's up.
I think to mention lack of facilities or lack of grass fields in Korea is a poor excuse, in Iran we play on the streets... and thats where the real footballers start their carrers.
you obviously haven't seen a Korean street. You would have no football players alive if they were anything like what wev'e got here. Number of children I see playing on the streets around here is zero. And that's the way it should stay. And Iran is not exactly a football power house either. Perhaps you may also need to look at your facilities. It's no coincidence that wealthy countries do better across the spectrum of sport than countries with much larger populations with stuff all facilities.
What do you mean with no football player would be alive if they were anythink like what you have got there? Dou mean the traffic or shootings or whatever? I can assure you whatever it is, it cant be in a worse situation than in Iran but nevertheless everybody is playing with a toope plastik, a plastic ball, on the streets. I use to play myself everytime I am there. My dad even played with stones at his time. And of course we are not a football powerhouse but that is not my point. My point rather was that the recent losses of Korea cant be brought into connection with the rare avalability (sp?) of grass fields.
According to WuTang's post, the reasons seem: 1. Lack of competition for a position in the NT 2. young players viewing themselves as stars on and off the pitch. 3. Weak mentality and all three of them wants to give more time to the coach. Also, it seems necessary to hammer down some young idiots who think they are all that.
OK Espiro let me explain this to you. South Korea has 48,000,000 people living in a tiny area. Less than half the size of the United Kingdom. South Korea has 479.5 people per sq. kilometre. Iran has 38.6 people per sq.km. Iran has 8% of the density of S Korea. Think about that. The two situations are not comparable. It is covered in mountains so most of the cities are built on the limited flat space that there is. My masters degree in Geography has assisted me in identifying certain things like this. The greater Seoul region has 18 million people crammed in like sardines. The cities are so dense and car ownership and use so high that there is no street within 2 hours walk of where I live that you could possibly kick a ball around on the street without getting flattened if you didn't move ever 10 seconds. OF COURSE IT HAS A NEGATIVE EFFECT ON PEOPLE LEARNING HOW TO PLAY SOCCER. How can you possibly argue that it doesn't. If you actually re-read my post you will see that I DID NOT mention grass fields. I said "grass roots soccer". Perhaps you don't know what that means. It basically means soccer at the youth level. Grass doesn't grow in Korea well so there will never be any grass fields for everybody. There are sod all dirt fields available here though and the streets are unsafe to use. Korea has a massive road toll, and if you were here you would see why. It's something like double the next industrialised country on the list. Yes, it has a negative effect. There is no other argument unless you are being pig-headed. It's not the only problem Korea has, but to me that is where sport starts. Korea operates like this. -Kids play at school if they get the chance. -if they look decent they are then packed off to schools where study plays second fiddle and they concentrate on soccer. -this means that suddenly the pool of talent has shrunk drastically from an already small pool. -these guys are then bred into the twats that you are now reading about playing for the nat. team and in the K-League My argument about what I see as the problem in Korea is different from the other arguments that I see above in other peoples posts. It's what I see as the major problem. You can throw as much money at guys who you think have potential as you like. But if you are just selecting a few early bloomers. You can give them all the psychological advice, best coaches etc but it all comes back to -have you trained up the best players- and how many hundreds of others have you missed out on?. peace j
Oops, I forgot to clarify something else as well. I am not saying that this particular teams losses to Oman and Vietnam are directly linked to facilities and youth football. Because these guys have the best facilites, coaching, opportunities, advice, facilities etc. They have nobody to blame except themselves for sure. The problems the current nat. team has are numerous and others have done a good job of identifying them. I am just looking at the bigger picture of what Korea will need to address if it wishes to really be a power house long term. Identifying talent at a young age is very important but you need to make that pool that you are looking at as big as possible and also give the opportunites for late bloomers to come along. A lot of good players don't appear on the scene until much later than others. Right now I'm off to watch Anyang v Ulsan. I will need plenty of beer to get me through this one. j Oh, by the way, well done on beating my native country (NZ) 3-0 recently. We suck don't we?! We really don't have much of a gift for the roundball football variety. Much better at the oval ball version (check out the rugby world cup if you can).
Right on. How long have you been in Korea? It's not like we don't know about the problem you mentioned. Since I first really got myself into football in 1994, I had been saying the exact same thing: more pitches, more oppotunities for the commons to play ball, etc. See, as I get older and got to know how corrupt our politicians were, I began blaming on our government. Then now, I see even bigger problem than that. It's us. We are the problem. The country is only 57 years old. The whole nation was demolished in Korean War. We had no money, not like we had natural resources like M.E. countries. Back in the 60s, we were so busy working and building and doing these at an extremely fast rate, we were not pertinent and patient enough to look out for the future. We randomly and hastily so built roads, schools, houses that our department store and bridges collapsed by themselves. It's not just in national infrastructures we made mistakes. Our social/political/economic structures were all built in an impetuous manner. Fast? yes. Smart? no. We produced corrupt politicians by ourselves and capitals that could¡¯ve been spent on building parks/fields/etc. went into their pocket. When I was 8, I used to have 100 classmates in my class, taught by one teacher. How and who would've been able to teach them how to play football? Plus, no parents would¡¯ve let children play sport because there was no professional team in any sport, and they wouldn¡¯t want their children to be poor as they were already poor. Every country has its own unique situation. We are trying to change things and I am certain that we are changing for the better. What we don¡¯t want to do is giving up our teams because of these difficulties. We want them to perform their 110% in given environment. Yes, the problem you mentioned is ¡°grass root¡± problem and everyone knows. It¡¯s just that we know it¡¯s not going to happen overnight and tired of saying it over and over and over. It¡¯s like complaining we lost because we don¡¯t have players like Ronaldo and Figo.
Well said. red fire engine is the kind of condescending dude who thinks he means well but is exactly that, just a condescending dude. don't think he even realizes that(or maybe he does, I'm trying to be nice here). He immediately thinks what he says is something he only thought of and I sometimes have found myself wanting to reply with, "gee, why didn't millions of us Koreans think of that"
settle down guys. I haven't seen or heard anything like that mentioned before. I'm no good with guessing games. I was pointing out to the guy from Iran something about the problems Korea has from a logistical point of view. Korea is not a poor country anymore yet why are schools constantly building over their soccer fields NOW? In 2003. Iv'e seen it happen at 3 schools this year. I know Koreans know the problems but I was saying that IMO it is the BIGGEST problem facing Korean soccer. Am I not allowed to say that? Am I only allowed to say things that have never been said before? I guess you guys have totally original ideas 100% of the time then. And gee what should I guess about you Bad Azz Snow Boarder. You obviously think pretty highly of yourself as a snow boarder. Apart from that just a touch of bitterness I guess (literally). For the record, I wrote an article on marketing in the K-League several months ago and now in the newspapers I read about the issues I talked about being acknowledged for the FIRST time. Amazing. An outsider nails the problem immediately. Oh dear! And for the record you should hear what I have to say about sport in my own country. Just it's not exactly topical to talk about rugby and rugby league in NZ on a Korean soccer board. I mean well, even if I come across like a cynical b-a-s-t-a-r-d. jinjjayo
About three years. First arrived in January 2000 then left for a while. But been back a couple of years and will be here one more after this one. Sports fanatic. So I love watching the K-League (Anyang LG) and been to the baseball (LG Twins) a bit and planning on going to a bit of basketball (SBS Stars) when the season really gets going. Regarding the rest of your post. Well you obviously know all about the issues at hand better than most I have heard from. It's a shame that so much of Korea is mountainous. It's good in some ways in terms of preserving the environment but it's a damn nightmare for city planners regarding open space development. Still I think more can be done, because whenever space becomes available just another building goes up. There's one thing that's pretty true of urban development. It's very rare for a building to be knocked down to make open space, and it's far easier for open space to be built over. So densely populated cities have to be very careful about preserving what they have and setting laws in place about minimum requirements per head of popn. The trends I see around here are for there to be more people moving in, more buildings going up and open space decreasing. It's looking real bad for the future. right now I'm off to have a training run with an expat footie team that I have just been setting up. We even managed to find a ground we can apparently use regularly. Eureka!! anyways peace j
I just wanted to say that I don't think RFE comes across as a condescending white guy who knows what's best for the darker natives. Besides, he's from NEW ZEALAND. A country poorer than Korea! Just kidding big guy. Seriously, it is obvious that RFE is a true soccer fan, and I believe that his criticisms of Korea/Korean soccer come from a desire to see it improve. Although I might not post much in response, I always find his posts interesting.
rfe, No offense meant in my earlier post. I know you have a passion for the sport and I appreciate your love of Korean football. Not many foreigners love our football you know. There are two types of fans in Korea. One type is true fans. The other type is namebi, or pot in english, fans. So called true fans who are mostly self-claimed true fans call other non-true fans namebi fans because of they boil fast but also get cold fast. Then there are different "sects" within the true fans. Some claim that the support for the local clubs should be the backbone of the support structure, while some others claim supporting players even when they struggle should be the true form of fan support. But one thing common in them is that they all hate "naembi" fans who only criticize without any solution blaming this and that. In that sense, I was just trying to point out to you that many of us have discussed and tried to find solutions for the problems you mentioned. If you have a way to read/understand Korean, KFA's message board will give you more insights. On a side note, I personally don't see any point categorizing fans and point fingers. What we need is more fans whether they're naembi or Ddook-bae-gi. I think football encompasses more than just playing balls. It's hard for any country to have a good football team only with good infrastructure(such as grass pitches, more playing grounds) and coaching (like foreign coaches and youth-system). You need popularity among public, respected social status of the players, competent management in the federation, corresponding politicians who would listen and execute, and etc. and etc. You mentioned about marketing in K-league. It's a sad fact that there aren't many bright people working there. All the smart ones would not go work there. I bet all they think of is how to get out of there and work for finance or investment banking departments of Samsung or LG. Same goes to those sports editors of newspapers. Most of them want to transfer to politics or business departments, because that's where money is. No wonder they write bogus articles all the time. I'd have to write a long essay to explain the ins and outs of the media and their relationship with the government. Regarding this particular issue, Roh Moo-hyun is trying to turn it upside down these days. You will be stunned once you try to dig in deeper and deeper to find the root of the problem. Hope I didn't turn you away.
Some well made comments as to the infrastructure situation in Korea. I think our country has great aspects in terms of modernizing and the technological level is surprisingly better than some places even in the United States. But when it comes to facilities for young children to play football, that's where we fall back compared to other nations. It's not our fault no matter how you want to look at it. Sure, we can blame politicians for bringing in policies that will develop open space. But dudes, honestly, if you had land, would you just leave it open on behalf of youth football when you could earn $1 million or even more for land? No one thinks of long term effects or potential benefits for others. No one in Korea nor anyone elsewhere. Korea is a small country with many people. When I was living there this summer, I couldn't find a place to play football for the life of me. And when I did, it's limited space. Yet the funny thing is that when England were going through their pathetic spell during the period of 1992-1996, players and pundits alike were trying to analyze the problem. Why did ENglish players depend on the long-ball? The analysis offered by Gary Lineker was that English kids played organized matches on large pitches and that instead of learning to pass the ball intricately like their continental counter-parts, they would just hike the ball up the field and henceforth the long-ball epidemic. So one nation's problem is another's source of envy. There's no way about it. We can blame lack of pitches, too many ajushis playing, lack of equipment or whatever (even this is a lame argument because you can have access to football boots, pads, etc in Korea for a reasonable price). For the losses to Oman and VIetnam we don't have to do so much soul searching. It's simple. Don't take 3 steps back from the progress that Hiddink introduced to our national side. He started the progress but we Koreans have the tendency to misunderstand that he completed it. It was a start and we need to keep moving in that right direction. Forget about b**ching about fields and youth development. We just need to play the cards we have been dealt. We can't change these things. We don't have to in my opinion.
I get most of my info on Kor. footie by watching games, reading the Korea Times and getting info off my Kor. girlfriend. She's into football as well and so she always passes on all the interesting info. Plus the ex-pat grapevine we have going around the league. Holyjoe and Blue and White are my key sources. Though I don't believe half of what they say To change the subject a bit. The standard of the K-League has, if anything, got worse as the season has gone on. It is getting better overall, in terms of each year going by, but this year has been too long. Also I think some of the coaching leaves a lot to be desired, Jo Gwang-rae for example has taken a good squad and made them look krap. We looked very good at the start of the season and now look a shadow of that side. I think the main problem is that it is 44 games long this year and Seongnam essentially had the title in the bag halfway through the year. A few teams have definately improved from earlier in the year, but the whole atmosphere just died soon after halfway and the supporters all got up and buggered off all over the country. Hopefully next year is about 36 games long and the new teams inject some life and media coverage into it. also they need a Cup type comp that goes for a few games where coaches can blood a few guys without so much pressure and the FA Cup will hopefully enjoy a higher profile. They also need a third team in the Asian Champions League. Top two or three from the league and the winner of the FA Cup. That way there is a fight for second spot if a team runs away with the title. Like Seongnam for a fourth ruddy year. The curse of the league they are. Great in terms of standard but even their own city doesn't give a monkeys about them. j
One other thing that Korea can do at the top level is be more confident and have some self belief. There are many examples of teams doing much better than the should based on facilities, equipment all the mod cons etc. It's usually simply because they have that belief that they are good. Doesn't matter who they play. If you look at the top sides in the world they have pretty much been the top sides in the world for 50 years. Very few sides have put their hands up and say we can now mix it with the big boys. The US has done it, Korea did it briefly and some African nations have emerged but I can't really think of many others. I wouldn't use the excuse too much that, "well we started playing the sport much later than them blah blah blah..." because so many teams still fall back on that excuse years and years later. It's just too negative. Back to facilities for kids...well I still say somethings need to be done about it. You can't have a defeatist attitude like I'm reading a bit here. "We're not going to get any open space for kids so give up" doesn't wash with me. Not that I am quite accusing anyone here of going that far. The KFA needs to do something about it, but they are about as useful as tits on a bull. Most successful sports teams and countries in the world develop their game and team from the bottom up, not from the top down. And the more kids playing the game, means more kids interested in the game, more knowlegde of the game and more fans for the game. The first coach many kids have is their father...it's all one big cycle. anyways j
Sorry to be going on so much but thought this was worth mentioning. My bedroom window looks right down onto the soccer field at Anyang High School (so Essvee now knows where to aim for ). It's the school where Lee Young Pyo went. And they are seriously into their football down there. EVERY single night the lights are on (except sundays) and they are playing or training (like now). The trainings are really well organised which is good to see first hand. A real little breeding ground. perhaps I should take some notes for my teams training. Boy are we a laugh. 22 left feet. How do you post pics on this site so I can illustrate? j