Klose or Gomez, who should start for Germany?

Ballack was facing injuries problems on a consistent basis and his position was looking to be tactically compromised with the formation change and incoming of other youngsters. This doesn't apply to Klose who again, to his credit has adapted to every single change that the team has witnessed for a decade now.

 

Of the 2, Gomez. Someone better is out there shurle as a striker

 

Klose is Mario's Daddy Long Legs...

 

I think the argument would be valid if the bolded was actually true. I don't think it's that evident. This isn't a Hummels-Mertesacker case where the difference is clear as daylight. The argument is here because the gap isn't that large. Klose even at his age offers something Gomez doesn't, whereas the latter offers something Klose doesn't, so it's a matter of how Loew wants to approach the game.

Having said that, Gomez has been closing down the gap rather rapidly but I'm not sure it's rapid enough for him to secure that spot ahead of the Euros. Then again, there's a whole season to be had and many things can happen including drop in form, injuries, etc. I don't think there's a question that Gomez will ultimately become 1st choice in a matter of two years but the mere fact that Loew prefers to play with a striker, and aside from these two, the drop in quality is immense, the competition (or the illusion of competition) must be maintained.

 

they are two best players compare to other forward as of now so start GOMEZ and KLOSE replace if GOMEZ struggle during game,we still need KLOSE header,remember BIERHOFF?

 

I remember you singing a totally different tune during the World Cup. It's funny how you always forget what you said a while back though.

 

Well that's a tricky situation. I personally believe that Mario Gomez would be more valuable at the Euro 2012 than Miroslav Klose for several reasons but I'd like to take a look at the my perception of the situation first rather than just stating pros and cons.

Without any doubt the most important man is Joachim Löw and the job of the Bundestrainer is a very difficult one because we expect our team to succeed on the highest level. We want to win titles and to be fair that's what we should be allowed to expect. Therefore from Löws point of view he has to make sure that the team delivers when it's necessary and over the past couple of years Jogi Löw could always rely on a few players who never let him down during these decisive weeks. That's the reason Per Mertesacker is still ahead of Mats Hummels, that's why Miro Klose is still ahead of Mario Gomez and that's why Lukas Podolski is still in Löw's current Starting XI on the left wing.

In order to replace one of these highly reliable players it isn't enough for the competitor to be better at club level. That's just the entry ticket. Instead one must show consistence in his performances at the National Team and gain the Bundestrainer's trust step by step. That's also an issue a lot of the Hummels supporters don't get at the moment.

So in my opinion the main reason why Mario Gomez has a real shot for the Starting XI at the Euro 2012 is not his outstanding development since he came to Bayern in 2009 but his brilliant stats at the Euro qualifiers in 2011. As soon as he reaches a similar trust level as his competitor (and he is approaching constantly) other matters come into the equation and then there is little left that speaks for Miroslav Klose.

To come to an end I strongly believe that during the last two tournaments we were lacking a striker who can seal the deal with just half a chance. Miroslav Klose isn't that kind of striker but Mario Gomez is just that player for Bayern München and he can do the very same thing for the National Team. I believe that it will all come down to the performances towards the Euro 2012.

 

HA! Love me some Ribbeck.

Anyways, Klose is clearly an anomaly and just because another player has improved and is finally living up to his potential and club form doesn't mean Klose should necessarily be pushed aside, ESPECIALLY if that player still maintains the same level of play he has over the years. I would understand if that were not the case but it isn't. I just don't understand the argument here because the disparity between the two simply isn't such where it would make it so obvious. Age is relevant when it affects performance. Otto's old proverb holds true in a sense here, there are no young and old players, only good and bad players.

Well like SirM said, not exactly fitting analogy. But if Löw thinks the team can do better with Gomez then he should bench Klose.

 

Mertesacker has not been terrible for the NT though, he's been ok but hardly as a huge weak link. Imo the difference is Hummels is just a superior player by quite a difference but at NT level, he hasn't been a lot better than him.. or hasn't shown it yet imo.

Obviously I agree with you in that Miro is showing a lot more than Merte is for the NT. That's why the debate on whether Gomez or Klose should start, is imo the toughest one. Gomez is doing amazing at club level and finally doing it at international level, but Klose has been fantastic at international level also. I think either of the two will end up having a good tournament by the end of it, though one may add the little extra something. As to who is the "right player" is up to debate and tough decide, but we all seem to see one clearly over the other at times.

 

I was obviously talking about the their tournament performances and you wouldn't disagree that they delivered when it was necessary, would you?

 

Yea I think they both delivered in 2006 and 2008. Didn't stand out particularly in South Africa but all that aside, you build team as you go along and don't rest on your laurels. We can all agree that Podolski and Mertesacker were the best options back then and we had little to work with. That changes over time and you make the necessary adjustments to progress.

 

I think the argument that most Gomez supporters is his obvious and blinding superiority in club statistics. However, the strange thing about Klose seems to be his complete disconnect between club form and NT form. Even at his very worst for Bayern, he kept banging them in regularly for the NT. That's why I don't think using Gomez's CL stats as a comparison for him and Klose is a good choice. Rather, we can look at the NT itself, and see how their goals measure up.

Gomez has scored 21 international goals in 49 matches. (0.428 gpg)

4 vs UAE
3 vs Austria, Switzerland
2 vs San Marino
1 vs South Africa, Hungary, Denmark, Kazakhstan, Australia, Uruguay, Azerbaijan, Turkey, Belgium


Klose has a similar record of scoring against not-so-impressive teams.

62 goals in 112 matches (0.553 gpg)

5 vs Austria, Azerbaijan
3 vs Israel, Saudi Arabia, Cameroon, Japan, Argentina, Turkey, Finland, Kazakhstan
2 vs Faroe Islands, Luxembourg, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Sweden, Wales
1 vs Albania, Greece, Rep. of Ireland, Croatia, USA, Cyprus, Belarus, Portugal, Russia, Australia, England, Belgium, Italy

I'm missing two goals and I can't figure out who they were against.

But as you can see, he has only scored 6 goals against what one might consider "top" opposition (Italy, England, Portugal, Argentina).

This however, should be put in context, as even someone as acclaimed as David Villa has only 6 goals against such opposition out of 50 (against Italy, England, France, Argentina, Portugal) and someone like Raul has only 4 out of 44 (against Germany and Italy) and Ronaldo himself, considered one of the best strikers to ever live has 11 out of 62, and more if you add Uruguay to the list.

For reference, I am defining "top" opposition as Spain, Germany, Netherlands, England, France, Italy, Brazil, Argentina, Portugal.



Now Gomez on the other hand has no goals against such top opposition, but I am very reluctant to use this as a stat against him because I have no record of how many matches he actually played against such opposition, and also because his sample size of goals isn't yet as big as the others'.

The point I am trying to make here, is that Miro can hold his own when compared to any striker for any NT that has ever lived (except maybe the Puskas and Gerd Müller type super-anomalies), and this hasn't only been by padding his stats against the weaker NTs, because every striker in the world does that.

 

The thing is Klose has been pretty awful when the tournament is close to being done. I think he scored once in semi-final in Euro but even that match he was atrocious. He was awful in 02, in 06 vs Italy after a great 30 minutes and just about every semi-final afterwards.

However this doesn't confirm that Gomez will do better, or that Klose will continue to not impress if he starts Euro 2012. Some people like me may want to see a different alternative is all, but yeah I agree with you Klose is a freaking world class striker, than and now. I may think Gomez is even better at NT but that really is too difficult to judge on unless you see them in a tournament.

 

Podolski has delivered, but his performances have been masked by his laziness. Schuerrle defends more and takes on defenders more as well. His goal scoring rate is also superb at this moment and Loew is doing well to make him and Podolski compete for such a position.

 

Right now I'm not so concerned about Podolski playing, because Schurrle has shown that he is a capable sub. He hasn't needed to work himself into the game to score, which is really a fabulous thing to have in a sub. And I wonder if this is just a better way of potentially utilizing both players. Podolski plays knowing that he will get subbed out at half time. This might be an impetus to score.

I don't think Poldi would be as efficient subbing in, because he doesn't seem to be performing with as much urgency.

 

I believe Gomez is better at this time. Also, I don't think he's useful as a sub, he needs 90 minutes to be effective.

Overall, it should depend on current form and Löw needs to be flexible enough to realize this. During Euro '08 Gomez was in horrible form, but Löw still started him nearly every match - I hope he's learned from that by now.

 

1) Gerd Mueller
2) Rudi Voeller ( yes, I think he's an all time great )
3) Klose = Kalle (can't make up my mind on who is better)
5) Klinsmann

Seeler, I have seen very little off and am not in a position to comment on.

 

Which bears the risk that we might see a similar performance to the one Podolski displayed against Serbia (WC 2010), where he seemingly wanted to score at all cost and from each and every position and thereby wasted away several promising opportunities. Overeagerness/-ambition wouldn't help much either. Of course, the same could possibly apply if Podolski was used as a sub and tried to "save the game" on his own.

That said, Schürrle works well as a sub and is a great weapon to have on the bench. He basically offers everything you'd wish from a joker - he needs ~20 seconds to settle in, causes constant chaos in the opponent's defence with his speed and dribbling skills (and the willingness to do so over and over again, without getting carried away and going on an egotrip - he can also pass well and participate in build up plays) and is a dynamic goal threat, who regularly scores when being thrown on the pitch.

Oh, as far as that Klose vs. Gomez issue goes, I'm heavily in favor of Gomez, but still voted for Klose (because he plays the contra bassoon to perfection).

 

San Marino, 06.09.2006.

I think these stats are pretty meaningless, as the only real time any top team plays another - apart from the occasional "prestige" friendly - would be during the latter stages of major tournaments.

The fact is that the vast majority of games are either meaningless friendlies or in tournament qualifying groups - lots of goals being scored, usually against second-string opposition. It's actually rather rare to find another "top" team in your qualifying group - in recent years the only time I can remember this happening to Germany was when they were in the same group as England in qualifying for the 2002 WC - and this was only because they were ranked as a second-tier side at the time.

As far as Miro is concerned, let's have a look at his tournament record:

WC2002 - only one game with no return against quality opposition - the final against Brazil - and it's not exactly his fault that everyone else and some dodgy refereeing conspired to knock all of the decent teams out. (0/1)

EC2004 - with Germany being knocked out in the first round, there was only one "first class" match - the 1-1 draw against the Dutch - but Klose didn't play. (0/0)

WC2006 - seven matches, three against "first class" opposition: Argentina, Italy, Portugal. One goal, that against the Argentinians. (1/3)

EC2008 - Two matches against what could be termed "first class" opposition - the QF against Portugal and the Final against Spain. One goal against the Portuguese. (1/2)

WC2010 - After the low-value first phase, Klose had three games against "first class" opposition: England (1 goal), Argentina (2 goals) and Spain (0 goals) (3/3)

Adding these up, Miro has scored five goals from these nine games against top-ranked opposition in major tournament finals. This is a strike rate of 0.555, which is slightly better than his overall career record (62/112 at 0.554). Not bad at all really.

Compare this to the great Gerd Müller:

WC1970 - Two matches against quality opposition, the QF v England (1 goal) and the SF v Italy (2 goals) (3/2)

EC1972 - He scored a hatful here but the two opponents - Belgium and the USSR - are not amongst our "top ranked" teams. (0/0)

WC1974 - One goal against quality opposition in one game - the winner against the Dutch in the final) (1/1)

Overall, Müller scored four goals in three games against top-ranked opposition in tournaments, at a strike rate of 1.333, slightly more than his career goals per game ratio (68/62 = 1.097)

I don't think Gomez can really be compared at the moment - given that he has not actually started in an important game against top-ranked opposition the comparison is meaningless. He has in fact had only just over half an hour of game time against such opposition (11 mins v Spain in the 2008 Euros, 18 mins v England, WC2010, 9 mins v Spain, WC2010).

 

I think it's just in Poldi's character to play this way - given half the chance he'll choose to leather it. While this can be a good thing - for obvious reasons - when it doesn't work out he can be a source of much annoyance for all concerned in that he will continue to bang away rather than sit back and distribute.

I have become an advocate of using this as a set strategy, as nigh on every time Schürrle has come on he has disrupted the opposition that over the course of the game has become programmed to stop Poldi's at times predictable runs and left-foot shots. Schürrle had a greater understanding of team play, can switch from one side of the field to the other easily, has two feet, and links brilliantly with Thomas Müller.

The fact that he hits the ground running is indeed a massive bonus, of course - the perfect attribute for a "Joker".