Klinsmann's revolution...

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by HouseHead78, Aug 30, 2011.

  1. HouseHead78

    HouseHead78 Member+

    Oct 17, 2006
    Austin, TX
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thought this deserved its own thread:

    http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/ne...ann-revolution-take-time-jeff-carlisle-soccer

    Nice, thorough look into Klinsmann's thought processes, time at Bayern, etc.

    Interesting points about Gatt, Mix, etc.

     
    1 person likes this.
  2. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good article.

    Folks who constantly call for US U20's to get Senior games will be dissappointed. He sounds very systematic, and perhaps hierarchical in bringing young players into the Senior team. Dare I even suggest "alpha-dog"? ;)

    Vasquez is clearly Klinsi's right hand man. Physical fitness and 100% match focus are top qualities expected of everyone. Will be interesting to see who becomes the #3 guy. Dooley would be my guess, though the article doesn't speculate.

    Klinsi also wants to take on the long MLS off-season:

    Klinsmann is also attacking problems further upstream in terms of player development. Of particular concern is the MLS calendar, which runs for roughly eight months. "We need to attack that topic," said Klinsmann about the league calendar. "If they lose two or three months in the offseason, on this level, we can't afford that. It's as simple as that. We can't have a national team player take two months off, it's impossible. [Otherwise], we will never reach the global stage."
     
  3. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, it's nice to have a more media friendly coach, at least we know what he is thinking.
    In terms of the Olympic team, isn't Jozy eligible too? Altidore, Adu, Agudelo, Gatt, Diskerud. That's five right there. Hamid is eligible. Gyau? If I had to pick seven, those would be it.

    EDIT: Forgot, is Bunbury eligible as well? Chandler? Gosh, could go higher than 7 if so.
     
  4. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually these two things bother me.

    1. I assume that he is going to start a full time U-23 program that plays regularly. But against who? Why punish really good players for being young and make them play at a lower level for 3-4 years, when they could be playing and contributing at the top level. Some of our best players over the years have been under 23. Donovan, Beasely Altidore, Bradley, and many, many others. This is a very German way to view the game. Donovan and Twellman can tell you all about it. The idea that you really shouldn't be playing with the big boys until you are 23-24 is very German. In my opinion, if you are good enough to play at the highest level, your age doesn't matter. This is a very negative development, because in reality it will move some of our talent back 3-4 years in development. Instead of getting key national team experience, very talented players will be wasting their time playing meaningless U-23 friendlies (hopefully) against inferior talent and with inferior teammates. Why do guys like Mix, Adu, and Agudelo who have already shown they contribute at this level have to wait 2-3 years before they can play with the big boys? And what media pressure? It is just Ives and Grant, and a few other guys!

    2. While I certainly sympathize with Klinsman's wanting to extend the MLS calendar, realistically this is a bridge too far, for the simple reason of horrible weather. So unless Klinsman can cover the lost gate receipts, I really don't see Garber and MLS bending over and playing games during the horrible months of December through February. March and November might be up for grabs, but in most MLS cities this can still be a disaster. April is iffy in lots of places already. Money is the almighty trump card, and MLS knows that playing games during these months is a sure fire way to lose money... so it ain't going to happen.

    For me these two issues are already showing that Klinsman may not grasp the American system quite like we thought he did.

    Is anyone else worried about these things?
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. richmondlaw

    richmondlaw Member

    Jun 13, 2010
    Club:
    DC United
    It will be interesting to see what he wants MLS to do. The league schedule is the way it is because of soccer's status in this country. MLS can't go head to head with the NFL and college football on Fall weekends. I"ll watch a DC United playoff game versus a crappy Washington Redskins game but if I had to choose a MLS regular season game over a NFL weekend, i'm probably watching NFL.
     
  6. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    His wrinkle seems to be that he wants the alpha and his deputy to duke it out at every camp. I think under JK there will be fewer opportunities for the guys who might be #3 or #4 on the depth chart, but more of a competition between #1 and #2. And the part that remains unknown is how fluid the depth chart will be. It will take a couple more camps to figure that part out.
     
  7. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    I think maybe a "winter" league might make sense. Maybe a Florida and California division, with the champions of each playing in a final.
     
  8. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This guy disagrees with you.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Pablo Chicago

    Pablo Chicago Member+

    Sep 7, 2005
    Sweet Home Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, the additional media pressure going the the senior squad is just crushing. ;)

    Klinsmann's "pay-to-play, upside down pyramid, and latin-style of play" comments gave me an early indication that he may not have a grasp of what the USSF has tried to do with the DA program since its inception in 2007.

    Wahl recently made a "you can be sure" statement about Klinsmann and Reyna being on the same wave length, but didn't support this assumption with any facts. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
     
  10. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    JK is on record as saying players need to mature a bit and not be called up right away for one or two nice things they have done.

    For what it is worth, he is trying to build a system or path by which players end up on the senior team. We don't really have that at the moment. There are of course players whose talent and maturity pushes them onto the senior team. Guys like Brek are killing it as midfield players and are therefore getting bumped.

    A couple of hungry youngsters and a solid veteran team seems to be the best path to success rather than a team full of youngters. Look at Spain 2006, they had nothing but young talent on that team and while they impressed, they werent going to get past veteran france.

    [1]
    Iker CASILLAS (GK)
    [3]
    Mariano PERNIA
    [5]
    Carles PUYOL
    [7]
    RAUL (C) (-54')
    [8]
    XAVI (-72')
    [9]
    Fernando TORRES
    [14]
    XABI ALONSO
    [15]
    SERGIO RAMOS
    [18]
    Cesc FABREGAS
    [21]
    David VILLA (-54')
    [22]
    PABLO

    By my count that is 50% plus youngsters that didnt hit their peak for another three to four years.
     
  11. HouseHead78

    HouseHead78 Member+

    Oct 17, 2006
    Austin, TX
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe broadening and extending the January camp. More players and a longer term and a few more friendlies...

    That would be on USSF's dime...
     
  12. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Obviously there are exceptions.

    But this was the main reason Donovan got out of Germany. The kid showed up at Leverkusen and they told him that he would have to play 5 years in the reserves before they would even think of him playing for the first team. Where would we be know if Donovan hadn't beat it out of there.

    Sure the big Euro teams can afford to do this, because there is such a breadth of talent, but we aren't there yet.

    Sure, I would like Klinsman to help us build the kind of structure and system of a Germany, but it is going to take him longer than 3 years.

    Overall, I like the idea of a full time U-23 program. It would be another filter and also help some of the younger guys get some decent experience before they were really ready. At the same time, I worry that Klinsman is going to possibly over look youth, because of the German mentality.
     
  13. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think Klinsman wants actually top level games that really count. Right now a lot of MLS players only play April through October. Just 7 months. A few select few play through November, but that is really only a handful of players because of the playoffs. That means most players are sitting around not playing actual competitive matches for up to 5 months. Everywhere else the players are only off for 2 months, no?

    Klinsman has a point, but I am not sure how to get around it, for the simple problem of weather. You might be able to squeeze in a few extra weeks at the beginning and ending of the season, and maybe cut down the time off to 4 months.

    Maybe you get rid of the playoffs or push them into December and add another month there as well, but I think we all know that isn't going to happen.

    It is a conundrum for Klinsman.
     
  14. JohhnyCaps

    JohhnyCaps Member

    Jul 20, 2007
    NY
    Club:
    Sunderland AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that the issue on too much downtime is exactly that - it limits domestic player development.

    The issue is not 'we can't do that...'

    That said, maybe there's not an optimal workable solution to this problem, but to pretend the issue is an unchangeable fact of life in the USA is neither productive nor visionary... and operating under the mantra of what "can't be done" is a recipe for failure and an affirmation of status-quo.

    As for the player approach and instituting a system and style of play that establishes a clear direction and grooms players over time and level... to systematically improve and develop players in that system and reach senior team status after proven benchmarks at specific levels are met... I'm not sure what's not to like about that...

    Will it create numerous BS posts about "So-and-so kid is on fire for Sounders right now - he should be capped at senior team immediately!" Yes, it will... and so what...
     
  15. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think that will work. Players need more time with their clubs.

    And since extending the playoffs into December really wouldn't work (playoff games in New England/Toronto/Columbus/NY/Phili in the snow?) there are only two viable solutions.

    1. Season starts mid July, goes through December (with northern teams playing only 3 matches, all away at warmer locations, in December). January winter break. Season resumes February (northern teams again play away at warmer locations for 3-4 weeks) and runs through April/May with playoffs in May.

    2. Season starts in February runs through the summer to October, playoffs in October/November.

    Teams that could play in December and February include Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, San Jose, LA, Chivas, Houston, Dallas. Montreal could possibly play indoors. That's 9 teams.

    While there could be some potential benefits, namely aligning MLS with the international transfer window and having players in mid season form for all CL matches, its a BIG ask for MLS. Fundamentally, Klinsmann is right. We need a longer domestic season, but will it work?
     
  16. manq360

    manq360 Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Portland, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I really like the way JK thinks...now if everyone will only give him time.

    I am not sure what would be the negatives of having a team like Germany...obviously something is working right with them.

    And there has been media pressure on both Adu and Altidore. It is kind of funny, because LD was the first soccer player to come to the attention of my daughter who is definitely NOT a soccer fan. Then it was Freddy...I don't think anyone in the country who watches news or reads a newspaper did not know who Freddy Adu was. Altidore maybe not quite so much. And, I think this will go to the heads of younger players who are physically mature, but maybe not emotionally ready.

    The last point is the weather. Uh, get out the orange balls and continue to play. Other countries play in all kinds of bad weather. Are we weaker? True we would have to worry about thunder storms, but other than that I don't see this being a factor. Although it is true what someone else pointed out about competing against American football and basketball. I would hope that a true soccer fan would still watch the soccer games. We need to try and break the hold that the other major sports have over this country...some of which the media has to take credit for (or blame).
     
  17. dwsmith1972

    dwsmith1972 BigSoccer Supporter

    May 11, 2007
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It seems to me that with respect to 1, you may be reading far too much into it. I took from it that he just doesn't want to burden young players with too much pressure and that he will take a prudent, more patient approach and gather as much info as possible. Remember, however, that he did call up and play Agudelo, Shea, and recalled both along with Bunbury, Jozy and Freddy previously. He does not seem to be averse to calling in players under 23 and there is no indication that he intends to do as you describe and punish players by consigning them forever to some U-23 team.

    As for 2, I think he is just observing that MLS [American] players have more time off relative to most other countries and that that has effects on fitness and development.
     
  18. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with Klinsman that our players need to be playing more. I just don't know who you get around it, without running MLS out of business. You would also have to get NBC and ESPN in on the talk since they are paying for TV time now, and probably won't be super happy just yet about messing with the timing on their investment.

    I like a full time U-23 squad also. I think a top to bottom system is definitely needed. My concern is who do the U-23s play... outside of the 3-4 qualifiers and the 3 Olympic games? Is there really a niche for this?

    My guess would be that Klinsman would recognize true talent and bring it in when it could best help him. Still, the US is so big, and there are always guys who the U-20s and U-23s miss.

    I still am worried about the German "ageism" and inflexibility. It is a great soccer nation, but that has always been the criticism leveled against them, rigidity. Klinsman is obviously less so, but I worry about him still importing certain cultural perspectives that aren't necessarily true to all of soccer.
     
  19. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is my sense too. Seems that he is willing to call in the youngsters. Let's see if he keeps calling them in and using them after he gets a U-23 team going.

    He also may just be using this as an excuse to get around the criticism of not calling in Mix and losing Joe Corona to the Mexicans.
     
  20. cpwilson80

    cpwilson80 Member+

    Mar 20, 2001
    Boston
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Dammit, Klinsmann, don't you realize that the *next* 18-year old who breaks out will finally be the one to win us a World Cup?
     
  21. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is untrue for the most part. Most leagues only play when the average daily high temperature is above freezing for the simple reason that you cannot play soccer on a frozen pitch.

    You would run into problems with Toronto, Salt Lake, Colorado, Columbus. Their pitches would be frozen for months, and playing games there would be expensive (to heat the pitch) or impossible. At the minimum, the league cannot play in January. Several teams wouldn't be able to play in December/February as well.
     
  22. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Weather is actually fairly temperate in Europe, because of the Gulf Stream. It is chilly, but generally isn't as extreme as the USA. Germany and Holland are probably the only big leagues that face significant snow, but they also have figured out how to work around it.

    I was just reading a book, about how the Great Plains in the USA were the last part of the lower 48 to be settled, partially because of the brutality of the Plains Indians but also because of the extreme weather. Even cities like Dallas and Kansas City can have extremely bad weather in the winter.

    In the end the only places you are guaranteed stable, consistent weather is California and Houston.
     
  23. LongDuckDong

    LongDuckDong Member+

    Jan 26, 2011
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You could tack on Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver as well. They sometimes get snow, but the temperature rarely dips significantly below 32 Fahrenheit. And when you consider the fact that Montreal has an indoor stadium next door, there are a handful of teams that can play into the winter months.
     
  24. goussoccer

    goussoccer Member+

    May 23, 2001
    Avon, CT
    I like Jurgen's thinking. He's identified two significant aspects of soccer in America that need to be thought about. He has direct control of one of them and almost no control over the other - but they are real issues.

    People seemed to lose one of his comments about the need for players coming up through the system. It was so that he could be comfortable with the assessment of the player; i.e. it was an assessment delivered by someone he knows and is a part of the USSF and knows the player very, very well. He's not watching some video clips or seeing the player from the stands nor feedback from a club coach who may be motivated to pump up the player (or not.) He's not saying they have to wait until a certain age, he's saying he wants a better development (and feedback) system under him and to reset expectations that all it takes is a highlight reel to make the senior team. I think that is a good step.

    In regards to MLS' calendar. Yes, I get all the issues associated with playing a longer season. However, from the vantage point of how do we make the US more of a power in soccer - his comments are spot on. It's not his job to fix the issue, but it is his job to identify the issue and put it on the table. Leaders are supposed to do that - they don't have to fix all the problems (though they better fix some), they have to identify issues and say they need fixing. This is one that is gnarly for sure, but not impossible.

    The only way to change the results, folks, is to change the conditions under which you are operating.
     
  25. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Belgian U-23s, the Mexican U-23s, the Costa Rican U-23s, etc.
    I see a couple of possibilities.

    1. Maybe he's talking about a revised SuperLiga to be played in the winter.
    2. He's creating an excuse before the fact.
    3. He's just blowing off steam.
     

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