People focused on many things concerning group G heading into this tournament. You have the star player and the juggernaut in the same group. Group G story lines swirled around them like cotton candy: Ronaldo and Germany...the two big European muses. I think that the most interesting story to come out of this group is that of Jurgen Klinsmann. He essentially built major parts of this German program and now brings the United States program he is building to destroy it. Klinsmann has had many success stories with the United States team. The team has had historic streaks, has won in places they have never won before (Genoa Italy, Russia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mexico, Jamaica, etc.), and all the while transitioning between groups of players. Stalwarts like Bocanegra and Donovan have been phased out while new players have been phased in. Some young, some old. His substitutions in the World Cup have been outstanding, as have his tactics. The guy can coach. So...I'm interested to know what both American and German fans think of Klinsmann. Also, what do you think will be some of the advantages and disadvantages of having Klinsmann for the US against Germany?
Hi, I really doubt Klinsmann is a man for a longterm success. In 2006 Löw did quite a lot of the strategic stuff for the squad and Klinsmann focused on taking all the pressure away from the team and concentrating the media on himself. Ofc this is just my feeling, i never met him or was trained by him, but his "lack" of success with Bayern München shows that his everyday work is at least a little bit flawed. Now he has Vogts as a scout/co-trainer. I believe he gives a lot of input into the strategy and tactics. Klinsmann did not build this team we are having right now. His era was the Ballack era. Now the team has way more talent, but a little less guts. Overall the tactics are rather poor this WC. There was no team really impressing with offensive minded game. Even the dutch played with 7 defensive players. But maybe its due to the climate that noone feels as if he can dictate the pace. Don`t get me wrong i love this WC so faar, but i think strategicwise its not on paar with 2006 or 2010. The strength Klinsmann has, is to make his players believe he has a great masterplan, even if itmight not be the case. There is no real disadvantage of having Klinsmann for the US, since the german point of view will be that they have to advance and that will be all that counts. No matter who is on the sideline. There are no excuses for the german team. They just have to win, thats all. And i doubt the former München players have any bad feelings during those 90 minutes. It would be unprofessional and those guys are in the team so long and are so experienced, that they have to be able to focus on the important stuff.
I think you may have described the perfect national team manager: instill confidence and belief in a short time, delegate well, put a face out front for the public and media to aim at, select a team that buys in fully sacrificing chemistry for talent on the margins. I don't think he is the perfect manager, but sometimes I find myself looking back at things I thought were crazy at the time and asking, "was he playing chess while the rest of us were playing checkers?" I don't even mean during a match, just in general. From what I can tell, he's one hell of an executive leader. In the context of a national team, that seems to be the type of leadership that works for the US. It may not work the same elsewhere due to circumstance. He seems to be what we need. I could see him hanging around as either Technical Director or in another capacity beyond next cycle. Maybe he'll just bridge us over to Pep - he'll be ready to come over and live here full time by then, right?
Well it will be interesting to see if Klinsmann can hold on to a team for a longer period of time. Bc it is said, that players lose faith in him, and if you dont have faith in a coach like him, he cant motivate you, which is his biggest asset. Klinsmann doesnt want an operating position. He wants to be a coach. If that is a perfect coach for you, i feel bad for you . But the US team is hard to coach since the public demands stuff that the base (youth teams) dont create yet. Thats why they try and find players all over to throw US passports at them. And that is their good right, but often those players are considered tier 2 in "their" other country and they have to win for a country they might never really have lived at. Dont get me wrong germans did the same, and i think its pathetic. (Paulo Rink, Cacau, Sean Dundee) Neither of them but Sean Dundee would have played for "their" homecountry. If the US cant create better talent on their own, they will always have a hard time. The US should ask Klinsmann about how he helped germany build those facilitys that created the talents, and copy/upgrade them themselfes. But the US would first have to admit, that the current system cant compete with those of major "soccernations". Hope I dont sound too harsh, but english is only my 4th language although i lived in the US. P.S. the only reason US cant win this WC is bc steven cherundolo is not playing
JK has one of the most potentially rewarding coaching jobs on the planet. He's pretty smart and ambitious to have taken it on at all. What a challenge. He wants to be the guy who took the US team into the elite. It's an ambitious job that would make him known as one of the greats. He would have taken the team over the hump in front of the American media, who are broadcast around the planet. He'd always be remembered fondly as the guy who did what nobody ever thought could be done in the US. Everyone else around the world kind of expects it to happen, but American fans just can't seem to convince themselves that it will ever happen. What's interesting is that it could have been happening this whole time right under their noses and they never saw it. They were too focused on the past (Donovan) to see time moving right in front of them.
That system is in place in the US now. The best American players we have produced (Dempsey, Donovan, McBride, O'Brien, Reyna, Beasley, Keller, Friedel, Howard, etc) have all come through the American ranks. Some have come through the US system and left to play for other nations (Neven Subotic, etc.) Now there are youth systems set up within the MLS structure that develops players in academies. There are talent scouts out and about that are developing players from a very young age. Many of those are coming to the fore now. DeAndre Yedlin, the lightning right back who came on to press for the second goal against Portugal, is one of those. Some of those leave to play for other nations too (Andy Najar, etc) Now that people are watching the World Cup en masse in the USA, it's only a matter of time before the talent here explodes exponentially upward. We're on the ascendancy now, not later. By 2018, we very well could be an elite-level team. We're that close.
You forgot the wink face after the "throwing passports" part. I don't disagree that most wouldn't be on this German team. But the guys on the team now are citizens by birth. If we threw around passports, I think we'd be fielding a team with quite a bit more talent, but substantially less nerve and guts. The only time we haven't had a great team morale and ethos was the Harkes situation/ Regis (THAT was definitely expedited, but couldn't even happen now - well, the Harkes thing could, I guess. Maybe Jonathan Klinsmann's girlfriend sent LD dirty snapchats or something)
Well i am very concerned about people "picking" their nationality by some weirdish standards. I dont mean anyone who was born in america lived there lets say 12 years and then moved away. But if your born somewhere grow up there and than for whatever reason chose to play for another country is just stupid in my tiny little world. Well about those americans who were "made" in america i only saw ld`s try to "play" in germany. (BTW about Klinsmann not liking him. He wanted him at bayern. So he has a high believe in him. He problably just is a douche) DaMarcus Beasly "played" for my favorite club and was without a chance vs 2nd divison teams. (But it for sure was not speedwise, but he just was not professional and would be way too fragile) Well i hope for you that those academis will provide some good talent in the future but there is still a problem about no european TOP player prior to his prime or in his prime wanting to play in the MLS. So the MLS will be behind in skill until that happens. And if the MLS is behind the players need to switch to europe. But americans dont adapt to other cultures that well, not to mention languages. I dont really know that bradley dude, but i read somewhere he makes 6 million $ a year in the mls? Well if you pay him so much he should be awesome, but doesnt like the competition or he would be in europe. But ofc there will always be god-like americans like steven cherundolo who talks german, and played 12 years in the Bunderliga. But those guys are very hard to find. And steven wasnt the biggest talent but he was the most professional ever! look how fast he reacts to difficult questions. He doesnt translate in his head. He is the soccergod
Cherundolo was an American product from the old system...the same system that created Dempsey and Claudio Reyna. I understand that people in Germany aren't really exposed to US culture and especially US subcultures like soccer. Why would they be? Unless there is enjoyment in researching relative obscurities, then why would a German soccer fan seek to understand American soccer? I am a Dallas Mavericks fan. Dirk Nowitzki is my favorite player. I know him within the context of the NBA game. I don't know much about German basketball. It is different than what we have here. I get that Germans may not know much about US Soccer. Here is what you may want to know. The American league, MLS, has provided stability in terms of developing professional players and exposing young people to what professional soccer looks like. MLS is producing players who transition relatively seamlessly into many European leagues, including the Bundesliga where Bradley, Cherundolo, etc. all have played. An MLS team is not that much different than a low table Premiership team, IMO. MLS has provided a platform for player development not only for US players, but for those in CONCACAF and South America. Current or former MLS players are all over the World Cup. Costa Rica, Mexico, Brazil, USA, Australia, Ecuador, Honduras, Colombia, Spain, and Iran. Where you can really see that development is in CONCACAF. Players for the USA, Costa Rica, Jamaica, Panama, Cuba, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Trinidad and Tobago, Haiti, Canada, etc, etc, have another avenue from which to develop their game. It has improved play in the region pretty dramatically. Our qualifying campaign is a trying, rough slog.
A couple quick points because I have a hard time reading posts w/o paragraphs.... Bradley speaks 5 languages. None of our players picked their nationality by a "weirdish standard." They are all natural born Americans. Having a parent of one nationality different than where you grow up can still give you a strong connection to your other nationality. I know people in the States who've lived here all or virtually all of their lives and they still strongly identify with the country of their other citizenship.
first of all sorry for always presenting these walls of text I know i should use paragraphs way more often. OT: You can cherish your harritage. Don`t get me wrong it is a normal thing. But if you grow up somewhere, you live in that culture it is your responsibility to adapt to that culture. If you chose to play for another country (most countries even pay young guys for chosing their team) it only shows that you are either afraid of competition, or you dont feel at home in your own culture and have some sort of romantic dream about "the other thing". If that is the explanation, get out of the country your in. They invested tons of hours into your career as you did, and you just move like a flag in the wind. Go play in that other league and pls never comeback. If people would start excepting that migrating into cultures is a good thing, there would be way less tention. But this obviously is more of a german problem and i would have to quote social studys and errors made in politics, which is rather inappropiate in a soccer forum. I am happy for JJ that he found a team that lets him play, but i still think it just shows lack of character, pride and honor. I believe if you think about it you will see that it`s just plain wrong to play for 2 countries. If not you got different standards then i do and i respect that, but I obviously think different The thing is when i was in the US in highschool lots of kids went to me and said they are 25% german... So i was like wtf. Your obviously american. They cant speak the language cant find it on a map and have little to no knowledge about the culture. What defines being german/american? Ofc you can say the passport and thats all. Well you can buy passports for money. US is 500.000$ which have to be invested in the US. Hungary is like 5.000$ The culture is what defines you as a human being. So its the culture you grow up in that really defines you. If i had grown up in North Korea as a german child, I would be like everyone there(maybe a little bit more blonde, blue eyed) but all my habits and rituals would be North Korean. So even if my passport would say i am german, am i really "german"? I think this topic is a little bit too deep for a soccer forum and i think we should be focusing more on the real purpouse of the thread (I know i started it) I guess in 2 days we get quite a good hint about if Klinsmann will stay as headcoach, but i think all his little afairs (Kobe Bryant, his son bashing LD) will make it hard for him, especially since he is "only" a foreigner.
The problem about the whole sentiment is that you would be hard stretched to define what being "real German" even is and then have probably 90% of people disagree with your definition. While I agree, that it is strange for some people who are born in one country and pretty much live there all their life suddenly decide to play for another country because one or both parents come from there it is really not for me to decide how they have to feel about that and if they feel strongly enough for that country to play for them, hard from the outside to look in. As for Klinsmann I think he is a great motivator, someone who really gets emotional and behind a team and can fire them up and believe in victory. Löw is more of a guy who out thinks his opponent and tries to play chess on the field but forgets, that his players are not machines who just always operate within the factory approved specifications, I think if anything is missing at the German national team in the era Löw it is that confidence and absolute belief in victory.
One exception: Jermaine Jones. Born in Germany to an American father and German mother, lived some of his childhood in the US before returning to Germany. Played his entire youth and senior career in Germany and even played for the German U21s.
Well then yes, in terms of birthright you are correct. The whole nationality issue is a tricky one, there are many players out there playing for countries with which they have minimal affiliation but by some rule can qualify to play for. Sometimes it's a player going to a stronger country than the one they grew up in because of course they want to have a better chance at winning, or even getting to, the WC, sometimes it's a player going to a weaker country than the one they grew up in because they're not good enough to make their own national team but can make it on to the other one. It used to be a lot more straight forward, but human beings are a lot more migratory these days and that complicates things.
JJ even played for the real german national team. Not just U21s. ALmost all of those guys played for the U teams.
That description allies to all of the German-Americans, pretty much. All except Green were born in Germany (and Green moved there when he was 2). All grew up there, and did all of their soccer development there. AFAIK none other than Jones lived any real formative time in the USA. So they are American by virtue of an American parent. However, no judgement from me on their choices. Identity is a complicated thing. Personal example: I am German-Canadian, a Jermaine Jones in almost exact reverse (German father, Canadian mother, lived 12 years of childhood in Germany before returning to Canada more or less for good). I have 2 passports, 2 fluent languages, keep in close touch with German friends, family, news, culture etc, while at the same time the bulk of my adult self has been shaped by going to school and working in Canada. I am not "German" in the way that my friends who never left are German. I notice this every time I go back. I have developed a different cultural outlook, different habits and manners from 24 years in Canada. However, I am also not "Canadian" in the way that my friends here who never grew up outside of Canada are either... to many of them I still seem somewhat foreign, even after all of this time. So I can see how the players would make their choice, and how that choice could fall either way really. Or both. It may upset identity purists, but it is a function of the world. (sorry for the sort-of off-topic post... this is a discussion I have frequently with friends)
Cool! Two of us here, except that my dad never took us back there... Saxony at the time was not "returnable".
Anyway leaving aside the nationality talk which has nothing to do with the topic. Back to Klinsmann. I think we can lay to rest the idea that Klinsmann is not a tactician. There has been talk for a while now about how good he is but we need to take into account that this idea was placed in the popular lore by the documentary on the 2006 team and by the Lahm book. In both cases, there are some doubts about whether this was fair. Lahm criticized everybody of course but some have said that the documentary went out of it's way to present Loew at the tactical board and Klismann motivating. The current ESPN documentary on the 2014 team has laid this to rest. Klinsmann is firmly in control of the tactics of this team. What has been most interesting is that after having settled for 4-2-3-1 during the qualifiers he removed Martin Vasquez for "tactical differences" and since then he has had the team playing as many as three different formations. So far, we've seen a diamond 4-4-2, a 4-5-1 and a 4-3-2-1. In reality, I think that Juergen is tactically adventurous. He has a great faith in his opinion and will put players where he believes they are best regardless of where they play at their club. Therefore, Dempsey is a support striker and then a lone striker. Cameron is a center back. Bradley is the point of his diamond. Beasley is a left back. None of these players have typically played in those positions. I think that the United States is one of those teams that will respond to this. Historically, our players have been very coachable and will do what is asked. This has allowed Klinsmann to place talent evenly across the field. There are no true weak or strong points and most of the players are good with the ball and good defensively. This makes them tactically flexible.
Klinsmann is also a smart enough man to realize that he needs his advisers. Vogts is a tactical adviser, and the to consult often, even on the field.
Most coaches need that. However, it's been clear that Vogt's precise job was to scout the opposition. http://www.mlssoccer.com/worldcup/2...i-vogts-his-role-special-advisor-us-national- Mind you, I think that the US has done an excellent job scouting their opposition.
Vogts also advises on tactics. I believe that he had a role in advising on set pieces in some capacities. That's what I have read. If he is advising there, he is likely advising elsewhere too. I think that its probably much less formal then you or I assume and that coaches have input across the board and Klinsmann likely makes decisions.
Correct, Klinsmann is great friends with Vogts and I am sure that he will suggest approaches in meetings but I think that Klinsmann has made sure that he is recognized as the tactical decision taker.
Ultimately I bet that among the group it matters little who is recognized outside of the group. Within that community reputations are gold. It's a closed community. What we see on the outside is just for public consumption.