Klinsmann at Hertha Berlin

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by keller4president, Dec 23, 2019.

  1. #1 Feilhaber and Adu

    Aug 1, 2007
    meanwhile we have all these Super-kids popping up now after he was"shaking things up".

    he has his role in soccer. destroy the drug-pin, rebuild the house and then leave before he overstays his welcome.
     
  2. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Now that, DHC, is a marvelous post. Not just an ordinary marvelous post, but one of truly marvelous marvel....say as of the same type as when we're asked to make sense of this: "A geometry implies the heterogeneity of locus, namely that there is a locus of the Other. Regarding this locus of the Other, of one sex as Other, as absolute Other, what does the most recent development in topology allow us to posit? " .

    But, hey, if Lacan can, DHC1, so can you.
     
  3. White/Blue_since1860

    Orange14 is gay
    Jan 4, 2007
    Bum zua City
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Leaked Klinsmann diary attacks everyone at Hertha
     
  4. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    truly you have a dizzying intellect. Must be the same one that assumes that the USMNT was expected to come out of a group with Germany, Portugal and Ghana.
     
  5. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's the kind of shit he does.
     
  6. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Must be the same one that a team capable of making it out of the group in 2002 and 2010 is capable, with an even stronger collection of talent, to reasonably expect to make it out of the group in 2014.
    But, hey, DHC1 is the kind of intellect that embraces the excellent idea that getting rid of one of your most talented and important players is exactly the kind of idea that illustrates a team leader that cares about going as far as humanly possible in the World Cup.
     
  7. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I was against cutting Donovan at the time but the fact is that the USMNT did better than expected as per betting odds and every rationale commenter even without Landon.

    the fact that we were capable of making it out of “a” group both historically and even in 2014 in no way, shape or form indicates that we were expected to make it out or a very difficult group.

    Aren’t you a poster who now thinks we may not qualify out of the Hex this cycle and are at best going to come in second? Quite a turnaround in expectations....
     
  8. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not to re-litigate this, but here are two counterfactuals to what actually happened that were actually possible:

    1) Donovan does go to WC2014 and the US does not escape the group. Fanbase / USSF doesn't get ripped in half. Donovan doesn't retire. Jurgen doesn't lose his team and eventually get fired. USA probably qualifies for WC2018.

    2) Donovan does go to WC2014, US still escapes the group (possibly more). Fanbase / USSF doesn't get ripped in half. Donovan doesn't retire. Jurgen doesn't lose his team and eventually get fired. USA probably qualifies for WC2018.

    Either of those is probably better than what actually happened. I mean, unless you really want to hang your hat on losing to Belgium after giving up a record number of shots as some important US milestone.
     
    WrmBrnr, butters59, largegarlic and 2 others repped this.
  9. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Do people really think leaving Donovan off the '14 team was a key driving in not qualifying in 2018?

    Jurgen clearly losing the team and starting us off with 0 points after the first weekend was a key driver, but I think he lost the team much more because he stopped giving any tactical instruction (much as he did with Germany and Bayern) rather than lingering resentments over Donovan.
     
  10. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    He did give tactical instruction. Except it was complete scattershot. Remember going to a 3 man back line, unpracticed and unannounced to the team right before the Mexico match?
     
  11. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not talking about resentments, just results. No way in hell we lose to Jamaica and Mexico at home in 2015 with Donovan (who would've just won an MLS Cup after being arguably the best player in the league) in those squads. Imagine an alternative to Jurgen starting his 2nd cycle losing the two most important competitions of his tenure (the 2015 GC and 2015 CONCACAF playoff).
     
  12. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    But does that really cascade to 2017, when Donovan is retired, Dempsey is done and Bradley and Jones have lost steps? When Howard's injury in the Mexico game basically ended him as elite as well?

    Our stars got old and the next generation didn't have enough healthy talent to pick it up the baton. Our next generation after that was too young and not quite ready.

    Add in a few injuries, poor execution and a couple of really odd gameplans from Arena, combined with tremendous final day bad luck and you have no qualification.

    But I don't see how a few more wins in 2015 change that the team was tired of Jurgen's lack of coaching in 2017. And it wouldn't have kept anyone young.
     
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  13. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I have a healthy distain for klinsmann’s second term but I’m not sure it’s fair to blame the internal team divisions on him.

    Things came to a head when MLS poached our best players to come play at a lower level than they could for huge money (which I was a supporter of - a very bad call in hindsight). Klinsmann said exactly what bradley and arena has said before him that we need our best players playing at the highest level possible. Garber went berserk.
     
  14. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    this is a great post - my only issue is one cannot ignore arena’s blatant MLS bias as a large and direct contributor to missing Russia
     
  15. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    I think age and his health brought Dempsey to an end, not MLS. Actually I believe we might not have seen him star at Copa America 16 to such a degree had he spent the previous year trying to maintain a spot in the Premier League.
     
    MPNumber9 repped this.
  16. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, probably. That team didn't start to lose to the likes of Guatemala because Jermaine Jones "lost a step". Donovan un-retired in 2016 (and 2017). You literally could've had Donovan and Pulisic on the field together at some point, if that was desired.

    Then you are basically arguing that we didn't have the talent to qualify out of CONCACAF, which I don't agree with.

    If the team is winning matches they're supposed to win, there's a lot less reason for the players to revolt against their coach, even if the locker room sucks. Things started to unravel results-wise as early as 2015, as I said (the 2016 Copa is an exception to an otherwise pretty bad trend of results).

    I think the players knew Klinsmann was an iffy coach as early as the Straus Article, but at least the team was winning. Team morale is a lot worse when you're losing and being called out in the press etc, and that's when finger-pointing and blame starts.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
     
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  17. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    No, we had enough talent to qualify.

    However, our talent declined significantly, and enough so that a few injuries, a few executional errors and a couple of tactical mistakes made us not qualify.

    Normally, our talent would be good enough that we would not have to play particularly well to qualify, or we'd be good enough that injuries to Howard and Brooks wouldn't be as devastating, etc.

    It all layers.

    That's an interesting point. But I'm not sure the morale holds up anyway after an 0-2 in WCQ with a disastrous lack of effort from the coach. And I'm not sure we do any better with Jurgen not gameplanning in games forward.

    Surely the player revolt wasn't simply over the period of time but also had something to do with the players realizing the urgency of the moment.
     
  18. schrutebuck

    schrutebuck Member+

    Jul 26, 2007
    I'm a firm believer that everything cascaded starting in 2014. With everything contaminated and the 2014 Golden Generation aging, the damage was partially disguised only by the fact that the 2015 and 2016 tournaments were in the U.S.

    That being said, even though both of these scenarios are better for the US national team and many players, there are clear losers. The way things played out is probably best for Jermaine Jones and Tim Howard (even considering his role in 2017), and perhaps Dempsey too although that's more questionable.

    Klinsmann would be fine either way, judging by this thread.
     
    TOAzer repped this.
  19. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's not really a turnaround in expectations. Six years separate us from WC 2014, and the player pool is nearly completely turned over. I disagree with the position that we aren't going to qualify this cycle, but it's not like this is the same team Klinsmann had 6 years ago.
     
    TOAzer repped this.
  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Let's be clear.... it was Garber, MLS owners, MLS media, and fans like you that ripped the fanbase in half.

    You people arent usmnt fans. The only people that took the "decision" personally are you guys and maybe Donovan.

    I dont care about JK and LD. I care about the USMNT. Instead of looking for all the ways I can trash the guy, I am saddened that JK left a job where he could have helped US players.

    I think beating Ghana is the definition of a milestone.

    You people are pathetic. Move on or at least STFU.
     
  21. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ghana was in a shambles at the start of WC 2014. Players were besides themselves at lack of appearance payments and what they believed were broken promises. It was perfect time to play a distracted and fractured Ghana. Boateng also ripped apart the team. Beating Ghana in 2014 was not much of an accomplishment.
     
  22. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    2014 was nicely done but it was pretty much the same hang-on-for-dear life run we usually see. I was a lot more impressed with what Costa Rica did, even with a lack of “major league” players.
     
  23. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    That is F'ing nonsense. There was stuff going on with the team, but that didnt prevent them from playing well against us and Germany.

    Do you guys even watch games? It seems like all you guys did was went around collecting antidotes that might fir your arguments and kept the ones you thought might stick.

     
  24. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #149 ChrisSSBB, Feb 27, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
  25. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I mean, it's the World Cup. In the current size of the tourney, the competition is pretty stiff ... and given that we have an easier confederation / route, do people expect more?
     

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