Sure, but the same is true about Taylor Twellman, Edson Buddle, Ante Razov, a bunch of A-League forwards and Conor Casey. But Jovan's received more opportunities with the Nats than all of those guys combined, and hasn't done a whole lot with it. Kirovski was a better player back when he first started getting caps for the Nats and I think it's pretty clear that sitting on benches in Europe hasn't done a lot for his game. I think at this point, in order to deserve to be back in the picture, he needs to start playing first team ball somewhere and impressing... ...and this isn't going to happen with Birmingham City.
Kirovski sees some action Birmingham City beat Bolton 2-1 in a reserve match between the two teams on Thursday. Jovan set up the first goal and scored the second. http://www.blues.premiumtv.co.uk/page/ReservesReport/0,,10412~435761,00.html
Re: Re: Kirovski - almost news Really? Seems a high considering he's never been a proven premeirship quality player.
That's not his primary objective. Making as much money as he can for as long as he can is. And I can't blame him in the slightest.
Really? I guess different things matter to different people. I suppose if I was in Kirovski's position, presumably having set myself and my family in fairly good shape already, I might very well value a chance at playing in a World Cup more highly than an extra 800K a year for two years. I think he has a much better chance at achieving this playing 1st team ball than he does playing reserve ball. Remember, 200 grand a year is a nice piece of change so he'd be fine if he came back here. I don't fault him for taking the money, it's his life and he's free to do as he pleases. Just mentioning that I might not necessarily make the same decision. Maybe he's right and I'm wrong.
I wouldn't fault Jovan for wanting to make as much money as he could, either. He's got a family to feed, I'd reckon. But at some point, it's all about being the best professional as he can in his chosen profession. And riding the finest pines in Europe isn't what I would consider challenging himself as a professional soccer player. He'd better come home, and perhaps when the January transfer window opens, some MLS team will come calling once the league (hopefully) steps in to arrange that transfer with Birmingham City.
wow, you must be loaded....you mention an "extra 800k" as if it were change for gum. i wouldn't change my life around for a coaches whim--some of you would take 1/5th pay, come to mls, then HOPE arena picks you? as a soccer player, i would rather make 800k and not get a look from arena. why? he's still what, barely 27 (same age as Mathis or Wolff). by not starting everywhere he has gone, he has probably extended his playing career--he may have legs to play through age 36 or so--one benefit of not always playing. in addition, hey, he may just be a bit of a footy fanatic as well, and would rather be involved in the "world" of european football, than the stadiums with 5000 people in MLS (that MLS inflates and tells us there were 14k there). maybe he prefers fighting for a spot on a Premiership team than having a coach who has never played soccer, like 1/2 the MLS coaches haven't. you know, i think jovan is cursed in this way: out of all the clubs he has been on, he has never been put to the bench for anyone other than an international player. if he were you---you sign for a team, they like you, then they sign a French, Portugese, Brazilian, Irish, or German international forward, then you get squeezed to the reserves, do you throw up your hands? run home with your tail between your legs? no. you fight, and keep fighting for your spot. for an american forum, it's such a wonder how many of you essentially want Jovan to give up. How come so many of you same posters are talking about Conor Casey as if he is already a sure thing for our post-McBride FWD days? The guy has been playing 3rd & 2nd div. ball in Europe for what, starting his 4th year? Why don't you guys harp on Casey to come to MLS?
Hasn't anyone ever thought that it might not be all of Jovan's fault about how his career has gone. It seems to me that Steve Bruce has basically blow smoke up Jovan's ass, first by signing him and telling him that he's going to be a crucial part to the team and second by not releasing him and saying that he still needs Jovan for cover incase an injury happens. From what I've seen of Jovan is he may not be a starter for an EPL club game in and game out but he's shown enough skill to get some significant minutes. I'm not saying Jovan hasn't dug some of his own hole but I saying that Jovan has maybe been lead to believe he's better than he actually is by some coaches and management. The simple fact is Jovan has to play, whether it be in Europe or MLS.
Where's the newbie cut-off line for number of posts to become a contributing memeber of BS? I really hope I cross it soon. I really need my opinions honored and my questions answered honestly. But seriously, if the USMNT has gotten to the point (and maybe it has, maybe it hasn't) where a player of Kirovski's quality (ignoring JK's USMNT lackluster performances and the harsh 5+ years of assessment by American fans) should have "no business getting close to the USMNT anymore", then I guess we're all in better shape than we were in past WC cycles. in '98 and '02 players of Mike Burns' and Jeff Agoos' ability were on the radar screen and even made previous WC rosters. These were players worth arguing against. But they still got signifcant minutes in WC matches, and the results of some of their play were not pretty. I just don't rate Kirovski in the liability group. There's no harm with having him in the pool, that's my main point here. But I could be wrong. Heck, I was never a huge supporter of McBride, but then he became an effective USMNTer, so now I respect the guy. It's nice to be pleasantly surprised by players like that, and maybe Kirovski will be able to do the same for some of his doubters.
I see this over and over, that JK has gotten more chances and done less, and of course no one bothers to mention that for some reason Arena has used him as a target for the last 4 years, a position that NO ONE can reasonably expect him to excel in. Two questions: Who in there right mind expects Jovan to do well as a target forward? Who, were they given Arena's job, would play Jovan at target forward (not asking if you'd play him at all, but if you'd play him at target?) I thought the Confederations Cup was a real wasted opportunity for Arena in that he could have played JK at his natural position with Donovan and Mathis up front, or any two forwards up front. Instead, Arena plays him as the sole attacker and launches long balls to him where he never had a chance. As much as everyone loves to hate the guy, he's got skills that maybe 5 other guys in our country have, and their being wasted by our genius coach and his long ball, score, play defense and hope not to lose tactics. We do NOT have all sorts of depth, and half of most people's first 11 is injured very often. I could be completely wrong about the guy, but until I see him play in the midfield, I'm withholding judgement.
Re: Re: Kirovski - almost news I thought that the point was that, in fact, for some people that is not what it is all about. I am a "professional" (although one that practices in a different field than a football pitch) and believe me I have no desire whatsoever to become the best I can be at my profession if it means giving up certain other things that are important to me. Does that mean that you have to share my values? No, but I also don't have to share yours and likewise Jovan doesn't have to justify his decisions to anyone but himself (and the missus, of course).
This thread is weird. People are defending Jovan. Kind of reminds me of his teammates praising his skills pre CC.
Originally posted by tab5g Where's the newbie cut-off line for number of posts to become a contributing memeber of BS? I really hope I cross it soon. I really need my opinions honored and my questions answered honestly. And you've been getting that. You are called "newbie", because you seem to be new to the Jovan criticism, and your post count reflects that. But seriously, if the USMNT has gotten to the point (and maybe it has, maybe it hasn't) where a player of Kirovski's quality (ignoring JK's USMNT lackluster performances and the harsh 5+ years of assessment by American fans) should have "no business getting close to the USMNT anymore", then I guess we're all in better shape than we were in past WC cycles. We are. in '98 and '02 players of Mike Burns' and Jeff Agoos' ability were on the radar screen and even made previous WC rosters. These were players worth arguing against. But they still got signifcant minutes in WC matches, and the results of some of their play were not pretty. Burns should never have played. Agoos was a natural pick for 2002, but he didn't play as well as he could. He was struggling physically, even before the World Cup, so I was not surprised when he played subpar. I just don't rate Kirovski in the liability group. There's no harm with having him in the pool, that's my main point here. There is harm, because he is taking up space. We know what he offers, and it just isn't good enough. Other players deserve a look. He is not a solution to any of our problems. But I could be wrong. Heck, I was never a huge supporter of McBride, but then he became an effective USMNTer, so now I respect the guy. It's nice to be pleasantly surprised by players like that, and maybe Kirovski will be able to do the same for some of his doubters. After 8 years of waiting, there are no more surprises. We know exactly what he can do, and it's not good enough. It's not a guess, it's not speculation. It's years of observation, seeing chance after chance, and only delivering the goods once. No one is attacking Jovan's desire, his character, or anything like that. No one wants him to fail. All of us wish him the best in his club career. I think most of us understand his career choices and would do the same. We are simply talking about what he brings (and doesn't bring) to the USMNT. Pros: JK is an intelligent player with a lot of experience. He has decent control of the ball, but I would argue that it is nothing exceptional. He makes good passing decisions and can at times be spectacular, but those are rare moments. Cons: Slow, doesn't work on defense, dreadful finisher. So can he play target forward? NO, because he isn't athletic enough. Can he play striker? NO, because he can't finish. Can he play attacking mid? NO, because his workrate is too low.
Maybe Flan is right about the last four years, but I just quickly looked him up and... Kirovski played more minutes than any other US player in 1999... maybe this is when most people formed their opinions. Here are some '99 lineups, courtesy of the soccer garage: January 24, 1999: Estadio Ramon Tahuichi Aguilera, Santa Cruz, Bolivia att: 39,000 USA 0 Meola, Fraser, Agoos, Pope (CJ Brown 64'), Lewis (Baba 75'), Armas, Reyna, C Jones, Kirovski, McBride, JM Moore (Lassiter 68,) February 06, 1999: Alltel Stadium, Jacksonville, FL att: 17,259 USA 3: 16' Kirovski (Agoos), 24' Sanneh (unassisted), 26' Reyna (Lewis) Meola, Fraser, Agoos, CJ Brown, Lewis (Hejduk 77'), Armas, Reyna, Sanneh, Kirovski (JM Moore 86'), C Jones (Lassiter 86'), McBride March 11, 1999: Coliseum, Los Angeles, CA att: 34,154 USA 3: 22' JM Moore (McBride), 37' McBride (Razov), 94' Hejduk (Lewis) Thornton, Agoos, Llamosa, CJ Brown, Lewis, R Williams, JM Moore (red card 91'), Olsen (Hejduk 63'), Kirovski, Razov (Armas 60'), McBride March 13, 1999: Qualcomm Stadium, San Diego, CA att: 50,324 USA 1: 51' Hejduk (unassisted) Meola (Thornton 17'), Agoos, Regis, Fraser, Pope (Olsen 67'), Lewis (Mathis 82'), Armas, Kirovski, Hejduk, C Jones, McBride June 13, 1999: RFK Stadium, Washington, DC att: 40,119 USA 1: 87' Moore (Stewart) Keller, Fraser (Berhalter 88'), Agoos, CJ Brown, Lewis (JM Moore 60'), Armas, Reyna, Sanneh, Kirovski, C Jones (Lassiter 77'), Stewart July 24, 1999: Estadio Jalisco, Guadalajara, Mexico att: 60,000 VIDEO VAULT USA 2: 26' McBride (Kirovski), 57' Kirovski (Lewis) Coach: Arena Captain: Keller Keller, Llamosa, Agoos, Fraser, Harkes, Williams, Kirovski, Lewis (Hejduk 76'), Jones (Moore 82'), McBride, Stewart (Olsen 73') July 28, 1999: Estadio Jalisco, Guadalajara, Mexico att: 60,000 VIDEO VAULT USA 0 Coach: Arena Captain: Keller Keller, Llamosa (Lewis 66'), Agoos, Fraser, Harkes (Moore 56'), Berhalter, Kirovski, Hejduk, Jones, McBride, Stewart August 01, 1999: Estadio Guerllemo Canedo, Mexico City, Mexico att: 65,000 VIDEO VAULT USA 0 Coach: Arena Captain: Keller Keller, Agoos, Fraser, Berhalter, Hejduk, Jones, Kirovski, Harkes, Williams, Stewart, McBride (Lewis 78) August 03, 1999: Estadio Jalisco, Guadalajara, Mexico att: ______ VIDEO VAULT USA 2: 26' Bravo (unasst), 79' McBride (Lewis) Coach: Arena Captain: Friedel Friedel, Berhalter (Fraser 75'), Balboa, Brown, Hejduk, McKeon (red card 64'), Kirovski (Williams 68'), Lewis, Olsen, McBride, Bravo (Jones 61') November 17, 1999: Harti Stadium, Marrekech, Morocco att: ______ USA 1: 18' Wynalda (Deering) Coach: Arena Captain: Keller Keller (Friedel 46'),Regis, Berhalter, Brown, Armas, Deering, Kirovski, Reyna, Hejduk, Wynalda (Kreis 59'), Moore (Ralston) So he was clearly not a target forward in some of these games.
Doing the same thing as you Noah, and noticed that in 1999 and 2000, he was always in the midfield and was constantly voted as one of the top players on Sam's Army ratings (if that means anything) (and was about as productive as Claudio Reyna for the same time period two years later)(even more intersting: Cobi Jones had 23 fricking points in 2000) It seems as though it started against Ecuador in 2001, and though he made an appearance in the Midfield against Mexico in WCQ in Mexico City, with JMM and Razov and a get a point strategy, the entire team was set up to fail. Last four years? Nope. Last two? mostly.
You are most certainly right, that others do deserve looks, but I don't see the fascination with singling out Kirovski and saying he is the one who's taking up space and hurting the player pool. One of the points of the player pool is to let incoming and current players know what the level is and should be for the USMNT. Intra-squad competition improves the team, some players become WC reserves, and others don't make the cut at all. Saying that Kirovski is not a solution to any of our problems is rather short-sighted, and does not account for possible changes in team style or player form. Sure, Jovan wouldn't be in most people's starting 11, or even on their full USMNT tournament roster if one had to be formed today. However, listing the damage he personally does by crowding the player pool and limiting other's access and opportunies is somewhat nonsensical and it takes the dislike for JK a bit too far, in my opinion.
This is where I think we simply disagree. Maybe it's been inactivity, but Kirovski's touch has been awful. His crosses are poor, and his passing is very deliberate and easy to read. He's a wreck in front of goal, as he always panics when the ball winds up at his feet. He does have an excellent ability to hold the ball in traffic (maybe why Arena uses him as a target). However I haven't seen a whole lot from Kirovski that I haven't also seen from Eddie Gaven and he's 16 years old (we're running out of time to call him that though). I think the worst part about Kirovski's game right now is his confidence. He seems spooked. He won't run at defenses, he has no poise in scoring opportunities. This is why I think first team ball would help him. Kirovski has skills, no question, but at the moment they are ineffective skills.
I don't single out Kirovski. I have similar feelings toward Frankie Hejduk, Greg Vanney, and Chris Armas. We know what these guys bring and while they can do a few things for us, it isn't as if these are irreplaceable cogs in the machine. I'd rather see if younger guys have the opportunity to step up. Sometimes when we give these opportunities (Cory Gibbs, DaMarcus Beasley and Carlos Bocanegra) the young guys step up and surprise everyone with their abilities. And lest you think this is a USMNT specific issue, I make the same arguments in baseball as well. Unspectacular older players should be the first area where you look to make replacements. And for the USMNT, Jovan Kirovski certainly fits that category (as opposed to Friedel, McBride, Pope, etc. who are older but critical parts of the team).
Yes, yes, that's why we're poisting on BS. I might add that if we're now limited to discussing people we can outplay, discussing sunday kickabouts in Berlin _ where a few ex-pats are stumbling about hopelessly, is gonna get old pretty fast.
Originally posted by tab5g You are most certainly right, that others do deserve looks, but I don't see the fascination with singling out Kirovski and saying he is the one who's taking up space and hurting the player pool. It's not a fascination. It's a simple calculation. One of the points of the player pool is to let incoming and current players know what the level is and should be for the USMNT. Intra-squad competition improves the team, some players become WC reserves, and others don't make the cut at all. Yes, and we've been through this exercise many times. The period of discovery is well over. 27 yr old players don't miraculously get faster, or develop more skill, especially when they don't see first team football with their clubs. Saying that Kirovski is not a solution to any of our problems is rather short-sighted, and does not account for possible changes in team style or player form. Saying he is not a solution to any of our problems is spot on. Team style? We've got the same coach and many of the same players. Team style won't fix "slow as molasses", "can't trap a ball", or "can't dribble". The only style that would work for Jovan is a system that revolves around him. Ain't gonna happen. Ever. However, listing the damage he personally does by crowding the player pool and limiting other's access and opportunies is somewhat nonsensical and it takes the dislike for JK a bit too far, in my opinion. OK, so can I join the pool then, too? It's only nonsensical if you are cognitively challenged. He's not good enough. Not even close. Not ever. Why include a player who you will never play? Not once. There are others much more deserving, more talented.