Kicker Bundesliga all-time position ranking(1983)

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Raute, Jan 6, 2016.

  1. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    To celebrate Bundesliga 20th anniversary, Kicker hosted football gala in Hannover; Kicker's Super-Elf (Super Eleven) vs Niedersachsen allstar. when they announced their dreamteam, Kicker also released position ranking.


    Torhüter (Goalkeeper)
    1. Sepp Maier (Bayern München)
    2. Harald Schumacher (1. FC Köln)
    3. Norbert Nigbur (Schalke 04)
    4. Ronnie Hellström (1. FC Kaiserslautern)
    5. Petar Radenkovic (1860 München)
    6. Bernd Franke (Braunschweig)
    7. Horst Wolter (Braunschweig)
    8. Hans Tilkowski (Borussia Dortmund)
    9. Rudi Kargus (Hamburger SV)
    10. Wolfgang Kleff (Mönchengladbach)

    Rechter Verteidiger (Right Defender)
    1. Berti Vogts (Mönchengladbach)
    2. Manfred Kaltz (Hamburger SV)
    3. Bernd Patzke (1860 München)
    4. Josef Piontek (Werder Bremen)
    5. Lothar Huber (Borussia Dortmund)
    6. Johnny Hansen (Bayern München)
    7. Hartmut Heidemann (MSV Duisburg)
    8. Hans Nowak (Bayern München)
    9. Bernd Förster (VfB Stuttgart)
    10. Fahrudin Jusufi (Eintracht Frankfurt)

    Libero
    1. Franz Beckenbauer (Bayern München)
    2. Willi Schulz (Hamburger SV)
    3. Klaus Fichtel (Schalke 04)
    4. Bruno Pezzey (Eintracht Frankfurt)
    5. Pero Roentved (Werder Bremen)
    6. Klaus Sieloff (Mönchengladbach)
    7. Bernd Cullmann (1. FC Köln)
    8. Dieter Bast (VfL Bochum)
    9. Gerd Strack (1. FC Köln)
    10. Wilfried Hannes (Mönchengladbach)

    Vorstopper (Stopper)
    1. Kerlheinz Förster (VfB Stuttgart)
    2. Georg Schwarzenbeck (Bayern München)
    3. Wolfgang Weber (1. FC Köln)
    4. Ludwig Müller (Mönchengladbach)
    5. Rolf Rüssmann (Schalke 04)
    6. Karl-Heinz Körbel (Eintracht Frankfurt)
    7. Ditmar Jakobs (Hamburger SV)
    8. Uwe Kliemann (Hertha BSC)
    9. Peter Nogly (Hamburger SV)
    10. Gerd Zimmermann (Düsseldorf)

    Linker Verteidiger (Left Defender)
    1. Paul Breitner (Bayern München)
    2. Horst-Dieter Höttges (Werder Bremen)
    3. Bernard Dietz (MSV Duisburg)
    4. Hans-Peter Briegel (1. FC Kaiserslautern)
    5. Willi Neuberger (Eintracht Frankfurt)
    6. Herbert Zimmermann (1. FC Köln)
    7. Udo Horsmann (Bayern München)
    8. Helmut Kremers (Schalke 04)
    9. Franz Merkhoffer (Braunschweig)
    10. Michael Bella (MSV Duisburg)

    Rechtes Mittelfeld (Right Midfielder)
    1. Kevin Keegan (Hamburger SV)
    2. Herbert Wimmer (Mönchengladbach)
    3. Jürgen Graboski (Eintracht Frankfurt)
    4. Uli Hoeness (Bayern München)
    5. Lothar Ulsass (Braunschweig)
    6. Werner Krämer (MSV Duisburg)
    7. Gilbert Gress (VfB Stuttgart)
    8. Manfred Burgsmüller (Borussia Dortmund)
    9. Franz Roth (Bayern München)
    10. Klaus Zaczyk (Hamburger SV)

    Mittleres Mittelfeld (Center Midfielder)
    1. Günter Netzer (Mönchengladbach)
    2. Franz Beckenbauer (Bayern München)
    3. Paul Breitner (Bayern München)
    4. Heinz Flohe (1. FC Köln)
    5. Peter Grosser (1860 München)
    6. Felix Magath (Hamburger SV)
    7. Hansi Müller (VfB Stuttgart)
    8. Uli Stielike (Mönchengladbach)
    9. Hans Siemensmeyer (Hannover 96)
    10. Hannes Bongartz (1. FC Kaiserslautern)

    Linkes Mittelfeld (Left Midfielder)
    1. Wolfgang Overath (1. FC Köln)
    2. Bernd Hölzenbein (Eintracht Frankfurt)
    3. Rainer Bonhof (Mönchengladbach)
    4. Erich Beer (Hertha BSC)
    5. Bernd Nickel (Eintracht Frankfurt)
    6. Willy Huberts (Eintracht Frankfurt)
    7. Hennes Küppers (1860 München)
    8. Friedhelm Konietzka (Borussia Dortmund)
    9. Max Lorenz (Werder Bremen)
    10. Bernd Dürnberger (Bayern München)

    Rechtsaussen (Outside Right)
    1. Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Bayern München)
    2. Allan Simonsen (Mönchengladbach)
    3. Jürgen Grabowski (Eintracht Frankfurt)
    4. Reinhard Libuda (Schalke 04)
    5. Pierre Littbarski (1. FC Köln)
    6. Danilo Popivoda (Braunschweig)
    7. Rüdiger Abramczik (Schalke 04)
    8. Horst Koppel (Mönchengladbach)
    9. Herbert Laumen (Mönchengladbach)
    10. Rainer Geye (1. FC Kaiserslautern)

    Mittelstürmer (Center Forward)
    1. Gerd Müller (Bayern München)
    2. Klaus Fischer (Schalke 04)
    3. Uwe Seeler (Hamburger SV)
    4. Horst Hrubesch (Hamburger SV)
    5. Dieter Müller (1. FC Köln)
    6. Sigi Held (Borussia Dortmund)
    7. Bernd Rupp (Mönchengladbach)
    8. Franz Brungs (1. FC Nürnberg)
    9. Erwin Kostedde (Kickers Offenbach)
    10. Klaus Toppmoller (1. FC Kaiserslautern)

    Linksaussen (Outside Left)
    1. Jupp Heynckes (Mönchengladbach)
    2. Georg Volkert (Hamburger SV)
    3. Hannes Löhr (1. FC Köln)
    4. Lothar Emmerich (Borussia Dortmund)
    5. Erwin Kremers (Schalke 04)
    6. Charly Dörfel (Hamburger SV)
    7. Willy Lippens (RW Essen)
    8. Henning Jensen (Mönchengladbach)
    9. Heinz Hornig (1. FC Köln)
    10. Roland Sandberg (1. FC Kaiserslautern)


    ideal best 11
    -------Heynckes-G.Müller-K.Rummenigge
    --------------Overath-Netzer-Keegan
    ------Breitner-K.Förster-Beckenbauer-Vogts
    ------------------------Maier

    planned Super-Elf
    ----------Heynckes-G.Müller-Graboski
    --------------Overath-Netzer-Keegan
    Breitner-Schwarzenbeck-Beckenbauer-Weber
    ------------------------Maier

    real Super-Elf (beat Niedersachsen allstar 5:3)
    ----------Heynckes-G.Müller-Graboski
    --------------Overath-Seeler-Hoeness
    Breitner-Schwarzenbeck-Beckenbauer-Weber
    ------------------------Maier
    Trainer : Lattek


    Source : Kicker-Sportmagzin, Nr.82/83 1983
     
    wm442433, Gregoriak, comme and 3 others repped this.
  2. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Excellent find!

    In this section I wonder why Rainer Bonhof, Erich Beer and to a lesser extent Bernd Hölzenbein are categorized as left midfield. I would never have put Bonhof and Beer in the left midfield category. This is strange because it was done in 1983 and both players were still actively playing football. All other players are in the right categories.
     
    Raute repped this.
  3. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Just recently "Bild" published a ranking of the 100 greatest Bundesliga players, compiled by Ottmar Hitzfeld, Sepp Maier, Klaus Fischer, Karl-Heinz Körbel and Vim Vomland (of "Bild").

    Top 50

    01 Gerd Müller
    02 Franz Beckenbauer
    03 Uwe Seeler
    04 Lothar Matthäus
    05 Wolfgang Overath
    06 Oliver Kahn
    07 Thomas Müller
    08 Paul Breitner
    09 Sepp Maier
    10 Miroslav Klose
    11 Manuel Neuer
    12 Michael Ballack
    13 Günter Netzer
    14 Rudi Völler
    15 Philipp Lahm
    16 Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
    17 Jerome Boateng
    18 Bernd Schuster
    19 Jürgen Grabowski
    20 Jupp Heynckes
    21 Bastian Schweinsteiger
    22 Berti Vogts
    23 Klaus Fischer
    24 Stefan Effenberg
    25 Rainer Bonhof
    26 Heinz Flohe
    27 Thomas Hässler
    28 Jürgen Kohler
    29 Uli Hoeness
    30 Matthias Sammer
    31 Andreas Brehme
    32 Karl-Heinz Körbel
    33 Manfred Kaltz
    34 Jürgen Klinsmann
    35 Sigfried Held
    36 Wolfgang Weber
    37 Karlheinz Förster
    38 Toni Schumacher
    39 Pierre Littbarski
    40 Felix Magath
    41 Ulf Kirsten
    42 Herbert Wimmer
    43 Karl-Heinz Riedle
    44 Toni Kroos
    45 Hans-Georg Schwarzenbeck
    46 Uli Stielike
    47 Mario Basler
    48 Horst Hrubesch
    49 Guido Buchwald
    50 Hans-Peter Briegel
     
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  4. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    This list looks strange cause of inconsistent criterion. If they only consider BL&NT, Schuster is too high, if consider whole career, how Rudi above Kalle. Above all, No.2 Kaiser is really really amazing.
     
  5. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Yes some of it is strange. Seeler at no. 3 is too high because his best years were before 1963. Rummenigge is definitely too low. He should not be behind Völler, Lahm, Ballack, Klose and Thomas Müller. Boateng that high is also over-doing it with recent players. He's not better than many players behind him (just look at defenders Vogts, Kohler, K.Förster, Kaltz .... not to speak of midfielders like Effenberg, Grabowski, Hässler, Brehme ....). Bernd Schuster is too high, he spent his best years (1980 to 1993!) outside of the Bundesliga, only played there when he was very young and very old.
     
  6. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I like Jerome Boateng alot, he might well be the best centre-back in the world at the moment, but 17th best player in Bundesliga history? Better than Schweinsteiger or Hummels, who doesn't even make the list, among his contemporaries?
     
  7. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Probably he played left back but I thought that Höttges was more a right back or centre back.
    I know less than Kicker of course but I'd have Dietz over Höttges in the LB ranking if Höttges really belongs to that category more. Even if there are good chances they're equal.

    Please can someone tell about the position of Höttges in defense exactly through the years in club and NT?
     
  8. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich

    Personally I would rate Dietz definitely above Höttges for sure among the left backs. Höttges was - simply put - almost a pure destroyer while Dietz was far more potent going forward but at the same time very reliable defensively.

    In his club Werder Bremen, Höttges started out as a left back because at the right back position there was already Sepp Piontek well established (the later manager of Denmark). Since Höttges was not a full back that would go down the flanks like a left winger it was no problem having him play on the left despite his right-footedness. In the national team in the 1960s Höttges started out as a right back because Karl-Heinz Schnellinger was the standard left back. By the late-1960s though, because Schnellinger usually was not released by AC Milan, Höttges then switched to left back while at right back Bert Vogts became the standard player.

    In 1972, Höttges played right back because Vogts was injured and Breitner was the left back.

    In his club Werder Bremen during the 1970s Höttges was used in a variety of defensive positions, most often right back (as Piontek had retired in 1971), but also frequently as a stopper, defensive midfielder, left back and by the mid-1970s also sometimes as a sweeper.
     
    wm442433 repped this.
  9. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    That confirms what I thought and thanks for all the details. It's not new to say, I guess most of all since the internet, but Dietz is really underappreciated. Most of all in retro rankings.
     
  10. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    #10 Gregoriak, Jan 31, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2016
    Dietz is certainly underappreciated, most of all in Germany itself.

    For fun, here's the German full back pairings in all senior international games since WWII up to the emergence of the 3-5-2 system in the 1980s:

    1950
    Burdenski, Streitle

    1951
    Burdenski, Streitle
    Streitle, Kohlmeyer
    Streitle, Kohlmeyer
    Streitle, Kohlmeyer
    Streitle, Kohlmeyer
    Juskowiak, Bauer

    1952
    Retter, Bauer
    Retter, Kohlmeyer
    Retter, Borkenhagen
    Retter, Kohlmeyer
    Retter, Kohlmeyer,
    Retter, Kohlmeyer

    1953
    Retter, Kohlmeyer
    Retter, Kohlmeyer
    Retter, Erhardt
    Retter, Kohlmeyer

    1954
    Retter, Kohlmeyer
    Retter, Laband
    Laband, Kohlmeyer (WC)
    Bauer, Kohlmeyer (WC)
    Laband, Bauer (WC)
    Laband, Kohlmeyer (WC)
    Posipal, Kohlmeyer (WC)
    Posipal, Kohlmeyer (WC)
    Erhardt, Kohlmeyer
    Erhard, Kohlmeyer
    Posipal, Kohlmeyer
    Posipal, Juskowiak

    1955
    Juskowiak, Kohlmeyer
    Retter, Erhardt
    Juskowiak, Posipal
    Schmidt, Posipal
    Posipal, Schmidt
    Posipal, Schmidt

    1956
    Posipal, Juskowiak
    Retter, Juskowiak
    Erhardt, Juskowiak
    Erhardt, Juskowiak
    Schmidt, Juskowiak
    Schmidt, Juskowiak
    Erhard, Juskowiak
    Juskowiak, Köchling

    1957
    Juskowiak, Schmidt
    Juskowiak, Schmidt
    Gerdau, Juskowiak
    Erhardt, Schmidt
    Erhardt, Juskowiak

    1958
    Erhardt, Juskowiak
    Stollenwerk, Juskowiak
    Erhardt, Juskowiak
    Stollenwerk, Juskowiak (WC)
    Stollenwerk, Juskowiak (WC)
    Stollenwerk, Juskowiak (WC)
    Stollenwerk, Juskowiak (WC)
    Stollenwerk, Juskowiak (WC)
    Stollenwerk, Erhardt (WC)
    Stollenwerk, Juskowiak
    Stollenwerk, Bauer
    Stollenwerk, Schnellinger
    Stollenwerk, Schnellinger
    Zastrau, Schnellinger

    1959
    Juskowiak, Schnellinger
    Mauritz, Juskowiak
    Stollenwerk, Juskowiak
    Stollenwerk, Juskowiak
    Stollenwerk, Juskowiak
    Stollenwerk, Schnellinger

    1960
    Stollenwerk, Schnellinger
    Erhardt, Schnellinger
    Giesemann, Erhardt
    Lutz, Schnellinger
    Erhardt, Schnellinger
    Lutz, Schnellinger
    Lutz, Schnellinger

    1961
    Lutz, Schnellinger
    Lutz, Erhardt
    Erhardt, Schnellinger
    Nowak, Schnellinger,
    Nowak, Erhardt
    Nowak, Schnellinger

    1962
    Schnellinger, Kurbjuhn
    Nowak, Schnellinger (WC)
    Nowak, Schnellinger (WC)
    Nowak, Schnellinger (WC)
    Nowak, Schnellinger (WC)
    Erhardt, Schnellinger
    Pott, Schnellinger
    Nowak, Schnellinger

    1963
    Nowak, Schnellinger
    Nowak, Pott
    Nowak, Kurbjuhn
    Nowak, Kurbjuhn

    1964
    Lutz, Kurbjuhn
    Nowak, Pott
    Nowak, Steiner
    Lutz, Redder
    Nowak, Schnellinger

    1965
    Piontek, Patzke
    Höttges, Patzke
    Piontek, Höttges
    Piontek, Höttges
    Piontek, Höttges
    Höttges, Schnellinger
    Höttges, Lorenz
    Piontek, Höttges

    1966
    Lutz, Lorenz
    Höttges, Lorenz
    Lutz, Kurbjuhn
    Lutz, Höttges
    Lutz, Schnellinger
    Höttges, Schnellinger
    Höttges, Schnellinger (WC)
    Höttges, Schnellinger (WC)
    Höttges, Schnellinger (WC)
    Höttges, Schnellinger (WC)
    Lutz, Schnellinger (WC)
    Höttges, Schnellinger (WC)
    Heidemann, Höttges
    Heidemann, Höttges

    1967
    Patzke, Höttges
    Patzke, Höttges
    Patzke, Höttges
    Patzke, Vogts
    Patzke, Höttges
    Patzke, Höttges
    Patzke, Vogts
    Patzke, Höttges

    1968
    Vogts, Höttges
    Heidemann, Vogts
    Vogts, Höttges
    Vogts, Lorenz
    Vogts, Lorenz
    Vogts, Lorenz
    Vogts, Höttges
    Vogts, Höttges
    Vogts, Patzke
    Vogts, Patzke
    Vogts, Patzke

    1969
    Vogts, Höttges
    Patzke, Vogts
    Höttges, Vogts
    Vogts, Höttges
    Höttges, Vogts
    Höttges, Vogts
    Höttges, Vogts

    1970
    Vogts, Schnellinger
    Vogts, Höttges
    Patzke, Vogts
    Vogts, Höttges
    Vogts, Höttges (WC)
    Vogts, Höttges (WC)
    Vogts, Höttges (WC)
    Vogts, Höttges (WC)
    Vogts, Patzke (WC)
    Patzke, Vogts (WC)
    Vogts, Höttges
    Vogts, Höttges
    Vogts, Höttges
    Vogts, Höttges

    1971
    Vogts, Patzke
    Vogts, Patzke
    Schwarzenbeck, Vogts
    Breitner, Vogts
    Vogts, Schwarzenbeck
    Vogts, Schwarzenbeck
    Vogts, Schwarzenbeck
    Breitner, Schwarzenbeck
    Höttges, Schwarzenbeck

    1972
    Höttges, Breitner
    Höttges, Breitner (EC)
    Höttges, Breitner (EC)
    Höttges, Breitner
    Höttges, Breitner (EC)
    Höttges, Breitner (EC)
    Höttges, Breitner

    1973
    Höttges, Vogts
    Vogts, Breitner
    Höttges, Breitner
    Höttges, Breitner
    Breitner, Vogts
    Höttges, Breitner
    Kapellmann, Höttges
    Höttges, H.Kremers
    Vogts, Höttges
    Vogts, Höttges

    1974
    Vogts, Höttges
    Höttges, Breitner
    Breitner, Vogts
    Vogts, H.Kremers
    Vogts, Breitner
    Vogts, Breitner (WC)
    Vogts, Breitner (WC)
    Vogts, Breitner (WC)
    Vogts, Breitner (WC)
    Vogts, Breitner (WC)
    Vogts, Breitner (WC)
    Schwarzenbeck, Breitner (WC)
    Vogts, H.Kremers
    Vogts, H.Kremers
    Vogts, Dietz

    1975
    Bonhof, Vogts
    Vogts, Breitner
    Vogts, Bonhof
    Kaltz, Vogts
    Kaltz, Vogts
    Vogts, Dietz
    Vogts, Dietz

    1976
    Vogts, Dietz
    Vogts, Dietz (EC)
    Vogts, Dietz (EC)
    Vogts, Dietz (EC)
    Vogts, Dietz (EC)
    Vogts, Dietz
    Vogts, Dietz

    1977
    Vogts, Dietz
    Vogts, Dietz
    Tenhagen, Vogts
    Vogts, Dietz
    Vogts, Dietz
    Vogts, Dietz
    Vogts, Dietz
    Vogts, Dietz
    Vogts, Dietz
    Vogts, Dietz
    Vogts, Dietz

    1978
    Vogts, Zimmermann
    Vogts, Dietz
    Vogts, Dietz
    Vogts, Zimmermann
    Vogts, Zimmermann (WC)
    Vogts, Dietz (WC)
    Vogts, Dietz (WC)
    Vogts, Dietz (WC)
    Vogts, Dietz (WC)
    Vogts, Dietz (WC)
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, Dietz

    1979
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, B.Förster
    Konopka, B.Förster
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, Briegel
    Kaltz, Dietz

    1980
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, Dietz (EC)
    Kaltz, Dietz (EC)
    Kaltz, B.Förster (EC)
    Kaltz, Dietz (EC)
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, Dietz

    1981
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, Dietz
    Kaltz, Briegel
    Kaltz, Briegel
    Kaltz, Briegel
    Kaltz, Briegel
    Kaltz, Briegel
    Kaltz, Briegel
    Kaltz, Briegel
    Kaltz, Briegel

    1982
    Kaltz, Briegel
    Kaltz, Briegel
    Kaltz, Briegel
    Kaltz, Briegel
    B.Förster, Briegel
    Kaltz, Briegel (WC)
    Kaltz, Briegel (WC)
    Kaltz, Briegel (WC)
    Kaltz, Briegel (WC)
    Kaltz, B.Förster (WC)
    Kaltz, B.Förster (WC)
    Kaltz, B.Förster (WC)
    Dremmler, B.Förster
    Kaltz, B.Förster
    Kaltz, B.Förster

    1983
    Kaltz, Briegel
    B.Förster, Otten
    Dremmler, Briegel
    Dremmler, Briegel
    B.Förster, Briegel
    B.Förster, Briegel
    Dremmler, Briegel
    Otten, Briegel
    Dremmler, Briegel
    B.Förster, Briegel

    1984
    Bockenfeld, Brehme
    Dremmler, Brehme
    Rolff, Briegel
    B.Förster, Briegel
    B.Förster, Briegel
    B.Förster, Briegel (EC)
    B.Förster, Briegel (EC)
    B.Förster, Briegel (EC)
    Brehme, Frontzeck
    Jakobs, Briegel

    Played at right back most often:
    Berti Vogts 75x
    Manfred Kaltz 49x
    Horst-Dieter Höttges 28x
    Georg Stollenwerk 16x
    Hans Nowak 15x
    Erich Retter 13x
    Herbert Erhardt 13x
    Bernd Patzke 11x
    Friedhelm Lutz 10x
    Bernd Förster 10x

    Played at left back most often:
    Bernard Dietz 49x
    Karl-Heinz Schnellinger 34x
    Horst-Dieter Höttges 33x
    Hans-Peter Briegel 33x
    Erich Juskowiak 23x
    Werner Kohlmeyer 21x
    Paul Breitner 21x
    Berti Vogts 19x

    Most common combination:
    Vogts, Dietz 27x
    Kaltz, Dietz 22x
    Vogts, Höttges 19x (+ Höttges, Vogts 5x)
    Kaltz, Briegel 18x
    Höttges, Breitner 11x
    Stollenwerk, Juskowiak 10x
     
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