Greetings all. There has been some conversation in the Reading v Chelsea thread on Yanks Abroad about this game so I thought I'd bring it here (when it turned to interpretations of the laws of the game) for more insight. The debate/discussion surrounds the 2 situation with contact with the keeper... both of which knocked keepers out of the game. These can be seen on youtube: Hunt/Cech Sonko/Cudicini Now on these, what do you think should have been called and what card(s) if any should have been given? In the game, neither received as much as a yellow card. I am going to try and give one opinion (not mine) without misrepresenting it. That argument is that significant (non-trifling) contact with a keeper by a challenging attacker, where the keeper got the ball first, should be at minimum a yellow for the attacking player. The rationale given is that the keeper is often unprotected. I personally do not agree with this... and want to know if I'm wrong. Thoughts?
I watched the game live and saw many replays...Hunt should have received a yellow card at the least. He was in no position to win the ball and could have avoided any contact at all. Also, what was his knee doing so low to the ground? In review, although it would be controversial, it could be deemed a red card. The play where Cudicini was injured I think was purely accidental. With so many bodies flying in the area and the game on the line, players are throwing themselves in there. Unfortunately for Cudicini, its a case of being on the receiving end of a horrible collision. Sonko did not appear as if he even saw him.
I've weighed in on this in the other discussion, but briefly: --on the Hunt collision with Cech, minimum yellow, and could easily justify a ref. Cech is in possession, Hunt is late to the ball, doesn't have a real play on it. Certainly reckless, and easily seen as with excessive force. --on the Cudicini knockout, Sonko also (IMHO) should have been cautioned, and possibly ejected. Sonko starts his jump far away from the ball, is coming horizontally at the ball (I was taught that the more vertical the jump, the less problematic it is, and vice versa), is late to the ball which is cleanly punched away by the keeper, and with a lot of force, turning his body and arm into the keeper and knocking him cold. --I don't think there's an automatic caution in all circumstances as some (as described well by Wahoo) are calling for, although when the keeper is in possession, it's clearly a foul
Doesn't it look as if Cech is sliding into Hunt's path (and not Hunt into Cech's)? Does that matter? Agreed that Hunt could have done more, perhaps, to avoid the collision but it appeared to me that Cech slid on the greasy pitch straight into Hunt's path.
In my opinion, Hunt doesn't have a play on the ball to begin with, so the fault is his. He's well away from the ball and keeps running in.
By the way, I realize now I didn't give my opinion on the plays. In my opinion, Hunt was late and could/should have done more to avoid contact with Cech. I would have cautioned him for this recklessness. On the other, I did not feel that Sonko should have received a card. A foul definitely but I can see where there were other bodies pushing and involved - yes he got there late but I didn't see it as reckless or excessive force. Just my views.
Hoping for a fumble, perhaps? And surprised to find a head where he thought hands and ball would be? Just sayin' It seems that well meaning people are unable to agree after watching muliple replays from multiple angles at various speeds. Mike Riley had one speed and one angle. Personally I thought Sonko's challenge more rash. He looked to be simply flinging a body into a crowd. His eyes didn't look to be searching for the ball.
It appears to me that both player that made contact with Cudicini were already in the air and going for the header when the ball was punched out. The fist player knocked the keeper into the path of the other attacker who appeared to me to be coming staight on and not turned to the side. So, my quandry is, to whom do you give the card. The player who made initial contact and knocked Cudicini into the path of the other player who had a better opportunity at the ball, or the player making the "knockout contact"?
I beleive the first contact was made by Ingimarsson. That's how I remembered it, but wanted to rewatch it to make sure. Personally I don't see how you could possibly fault (or caution) a player who was in the air to make a play on the ball when another player is redirected into his path.
In my view, Sonko doesn't have a play on the ball, and in engaging in reckless play. He starts his run only 2 yards inside the 18, for goodness sake, and he leaves his feet well beyond the six, jumping directly in towards the goal. Ball gets there well before he does, Cudicini punches the ball out cleanly, while Sonko is jumping into towards him with his head down. He's very far from the ball, doesn't have a real chance at it. That's my basis for saying he should have been called.
I read/heard somewhere that Hunt was trying to get his foot out of the way and thus his knee got out there. Oh, here it is: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=385681&cc=5901 Anyway, I thought Cech put himself in harm's way as much as anything else. He went in to get the ball and swung his legs up to block Hunt out. He started sliding before he had the ball and from the time he makes contact to the time he gets clocked, I don't see what Hunt could have done differently. Hunt even appears to move slightly away from Cech right before the impact. From two of the views, Hunt and Cech were approaching the ball equally. The last view, where you see Ferreira and not Hunt, appears to make Hunt look late, but in the end, I think it just shows them both getting there to contest a ball. Hunt was going for the play on the loose ball, he can't assume that Cech is going to get it. Or put it this way, if Cech hadn't scooped up the ball, if Hunt hadn't clocked him, and Hunt had scored, would you have been calling for this to be on goals of the week?
The contact against Cudicini, typically will NOT draw a yellow card at the top professional level. This particular situation, I recall 1 player from each team challenging reasonably as the ball came in and GK came out. Then, another Reading player came charging in, somewhat late, and made a flying attempt to get to the ball. He was clearly too late and there was significant contact with the GK, and it should have been a DFK for Chelsea. Caution? It didn't quite rise to the level for a caution in my book. Not in EPL. It was unfortunate that the GK got hurt, but this sort of body-to-body contact is much less dangerous than a studs-up flying slide tackle or a knee to the GK's head as happened against Cech. Regarding the Cech incident, on live speed watching on TV it looked careless and possibly worth yellow, even before we learned that Cech would be subbed out. On replays, it looked even worse -- a definite yellow and arguable red, though not quite for me. The attacker knew he was a little too late to reach the ball and purposely left his leg(s) in there where he figured contact would occur with the GK. At least that's how I saw it. In these situations, the attackers often will take the opportunity to cause a little contact with the GK while making it look like they are just trying to get the ball. In this case, the player's attempt wasn't very convincing for me. Did the Reading attacker intend to cause a major, season-ending and potentially life-threatening head injury? Surely not. But it was definitely careless and worth yellow. Was it excessive force? I don't think so. It looked to me like the result was a very unusual and unlucky outcome. These sorts of attacker/GK collisions occur fairly often, and the result is very rarely as serious as in Cech's case. It almost becomes a question of whether the resulting serious injury should factor into the punishment. That has been discussed on the BS ref boards fairly recently.
Anyway, I thought Cech put himself in harm's way as much as anything else. He went in to get the ball and swung his legs up to block Hunt out. He started sliding before he had the ball and from the time he makes contact to the time he gets clocked, I don't see what Hunt could have done differently. Hunt even appears to move slightly away from Cech right before the impact. [/QUOTE] Are you kidding me? Wow! That was basic keeper technique. Why was Hunt's knee so low I ask? Not to mention it was clear to me in llive action he had no chance to beat Czech to the ball. re Cudicini's play; the thing that appalled me was Mike Riley LET PLAY CONTINUE after Cudicini lay MOTIONLESS on the ground. What the hell was Riley thinking? He couldn't tell from the force of that collision and the way Cudicini landed that it was bad?? Has ever kicked a ball? Has he ever got clocked on a headball? How can a professional ref have no concept of what a serious injury is. He is a joke IMO and deserves a few matches off plus retraining.
Wenger Fears for Keeper's Safety He makes a good point about "clumsy" challenges. How can a forward/player exhibit tremendous balance and body control while dribbeling but all of the sudden get "clumsy" on a subsequent play? Seems to me they only feign clumsiness when they want to lay a cheap shot on an opponent. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/6057730.stm
Exactly. Most professional strikers - Peter Crouch excluded - are NOT clumsy and do NOT often perform clumsy actions while playing in a football match. I couldn't tell if the quotes in the 2nd half of that BBC article were from Wenger or Lehmann? Seemed like it was Lehmann.
It's difficult to defend not stopping play in this situation. However, except for the 2 incidents with the keepers Mike Riely really did a good job in this match. That is not to excuse a failure to recognize an injury just an observation. Also, apparently instead of getting time off the PGMO have decided to appoint him to a big Darby coming up soon. So it looks like the higher ups think he did fine in that match.
watch the replay (the one from behind Hunt) very slowly and it appears that Cech's leg either trips or takes out Hunt's standing leg. That happens before the top of his shin makes contact with Cech. if that is the case (hard to be 100% certain as youtube can make the zapruder film look like HDTV) and Hunt was caught/tripped, it would certainly account for why his knee was low. The time between Cech getting possession and contact is also much less than it first seems. As i saw it hunt didn't even have time to take another step. Overall all though, I do think it's the sort of thing that ought to be a yellow card. I'd guess ball watching - as were the players, none of whom looked concerned until after Drogba's clearance.
I'm not a referee, so maybe my opinion doesn't count for much, but I just watched the replays of the incidents without knowing what cards were given or what other people in this thread would say, and I didn't think either situation really deserved a card. I can see the argument for calling it the other way if you feel that players were reckless, but all I saw were players going for the ball normally and a couple of unfortunate collisions.
Hard to argue that trying to knee the ball on the ground is how one "normally" goes for the ball. In that case, they generally use their feet. The keepers technique wasn't perfect as he let his body get inverted with his feet towards the center circle, they should have stayed toward the goal line or parallel to the goal line. Then he could have used his arms to protect his head. Yet, there was very little time to defend himself and he is clearly not the one to blame for the contact. The striker in this case is at fault, he was late to the ball and dropped his knee down to the field which then struck the keeper's skull. Had he kept his feet and tried to kick the ball with his boot, he would have had better control to jump and avoid the keeper, failing to do that can easily be seen as reckless. The referee on the other had probably had a terrible angle of view. In fact, I would say better than 75% of the angles this play that could be seen from in real time probably wouldn't have revealed the true nature of the foul, nor the extent of the injury. As the play was fast, unexpected, and low to the ground, it's easy to see how Mr. Reily had a bad veiwing angle on this play. Without seeing it from a perfect angle I think many of us would do what this referee did.
Hunt was moving towards Cech at full speed. He had but a split second to get out of the way. While someone is videotaping you, run full speed and try to stop instantly. A replay will show your knee dropping as you put on the brakes. It's just a natural motion when one tries to slow down quickly. Yellow yes, red no. One of those unfortunate weird collisions that happen in football.
Why try and stop at all? Better to keep going and try to jump over the keeper if you can, use the momentum you have instead of trying to fight it.
A perfect viewing angle of the knee to the head. Note this is NOT where the referee would ever stand. Knee to the Head discuss.
No doubt about it. He had no chance for that ball. Perhaps he was attempting to intimidate???...... http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,,1924360,00.html