Ok....can a player, during dynamic play, juggle a ball to his or her head from thier feet, then head it back to his or her keeper legally? Or is this a IFK??
Had a player throw a ball in to his own players head who then headed it back to his keeper. I didnt give IFK I did wait for a quiet moment and told the keeper not to do it again. At halftime, I spoke to his goalkeeper coach who claimed they did this when he played college(judgeing by his age could have been yesterday)..........anyone here do College games and do they allow this in the college level?
I know that lifting the ball to ones own head and nodding it to the keeper is cautionable, but I do believe that a throw-in to a teamates head which is headed back to the keeper is a legal action. My high school team used to run a play where two defenders would "find" themselves caught back with no support while our midfield snuck forward. During this the opposing team would usually charge forward. One of us would lift the ball to the fellow backs head and he would nod it to the keeper who would quickly boot the ball down the field where our team outnumbered theirs. We rarely tried it, and it rarely worked right, but occasionally we got a goal from it.
I've actually had deep discussions on this with national instructors, and there is duel sentiment here. Is it against the SOTG? Definitely. Is it an unsporstmanlike offence as described in the LOTG, possibly. Personally, I would have done the same as you grey...warning first, second time call it, because it's not the first one necessarily that is breaking the SOTG, but if it's done multiple times it definitely is.
From LotG 2001 (I don't have the 2002/2003 in text version) ***** LAW 12 - Fouls and Misconduct Decision 3 Subject to the terms of Law 12, a player may pass the ball to his own goalkeeper using his head or chest or knee, etc. If, however, in the opinion of the referee, a player uses a deliberate trick while the ball is in play in order to circumvent the Law, the player is guilty of unsporting behavior. He is cautioned, shown the yellow card and an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team from the place where the infringement occurred. ***** Based on this information, there should be a card shown for this and restarted with an IFK. One could successfully demonstrate that the throw-in example would also fall under the Decision 3 criteria. Why? Because a Goalkeeper cannot pick up the ball directly from a throw-in (from his teammate) so this would be viewed as a "...deliberate trick... ...to circumvent the Law..." This would not be any different than if a teammate lifted the ball with his foot to another teammate who then headed it back to the keeper to pick up. Cheers
Now that the "by the book" definition has been stated.....what ways is it possible to not give a caution in this instance? I firmly believe that there are some cards you MUST give, and there are some you should not give if at all possible (many of the madatory cautions) How would you get out of this situation, without booking the player?
A teammate heading the ball to the keeper from a throw in is NOT an offense in the Laws. Any referee who takes it upon him/herself to warn or, if repetated, punish such play as an offense is wrong. Gentlemen c'mon here, are you so proficient in applying the present Laws that you feel the need to add more so you don't go to sleep out there? I wish I could reach such a level, I'm still trying to do one perfect game without missing anything and knowing for a fact that all of my calls were fair and correct.
I'm not sure why you disagree with "many of the mandatory cautions" all but one involves trickery or lack of permission (game management). There are 8: 2 for faking injury/foul (trying to trick the official) 1 for impeding the throw-in (the only one I'd question) 1 for swapping jersey's with the keeper without permission (imagine the scenarios, whew!) 1 for the current discussion (again trickery) 3 for entering the field without permission ...but I digress! There are a couple of ways to not issue a YC; you could ignore the LotG, or you could fake having something in your eye. ;-) Seriously, it would depend on the level and age of the players'. If it's a youth U-Littles game a simple conversation with the keeper and the teammate is warranted, and sufficeint. If this is an adult or U-teenager and up game, you gotta' show some plastic. They KNOW what they're doing! We're not talking about an melee' near the goal and the keeper inadvertantly picks it up. We're talking about a deliberate passing back and using trickery to circumvent the Laws of the Game. I typically talk to the players' while on the field. In this case I'd remind the keeper not to pick it up. If he/she does... tweet! Cheers
Whipple, are you saying that I can place a player between a teammate's throw-in and the keeper to head the ball back and negate the Laws of the Game? I'm not talking about an opponents throw-in! The Law clearly states that the keeper cannot pick-up a ball from a teammate's throw-in. The Law clearly states that a player cannot use trickery to circumvent the Laws of the Game. Placing a player between the throw-in and the keeper to head the ball so that the keeper can use their hands IS trickery and against the Laws of the Game! (and the Spirit) I'd love to call a perfect game too, but the only way you'll ever do that is by properly applying the Laws of the Game. Cheers
I am torn over this response because I do not see it as a real violation of the ROTG. If you ever watch international games, the ball is frequently cleared back by one team to their own defense, who sometimes, will nod the ball back to the keeper. I have yet to see a violation called on such a play. As for the header from the throw in...I want to say it is a violation, but without the above situation being acknowledged, I can't see the throw-in being whistled.
I gave the players the benefit of the doubt and assumed they didnt know what they were doing was wrong. I take acception to cautioning for a player doing something they beleive is not illegal. By looking at the rest of the board, it would appear some referees dont know this rule either.
I ve never seen this in a high level game before......what league are you watching? Dont say MLS or I will scream!
Every single thing that may happen is not listed in the LOTG. Even NFHS rules dont cover it all. If you look at this from a SPIRIT of the game issue with the understanding that the idea was to keep the game moving, I think it is a reasonable inference that this is not legal.
Are you kidding??? Anyone that watches the game on any level knows that a head back to the GK is OK. Everytime the player heads it back to the goalie, its to "circumvent" the law. As someone who has played at a high level, i would warn all refs just to let the header back to the keeper go without even a indirect kick. Thus, eliminating the need for a judgement call and being in line with what almost every player sees as a fair play. By calling this foul, you are asking for abuse from everyone on the field. my two cents.
. i think the caution and IFK should be enforced. and i think it's ironic that "datruthhurts" is telling us to ignore the truth
Several things here guys. A caution here is NOT going to give you anything in terms of game control, so you need to think about it in that perspective. By automatically cautioning the player, you're going to PO the players, and what happens if that player does something else that deserves a caution? Are you going to have the courage to send him/her off with such a weak reason for the first caution? This caution can only get you ill will, but I guarantee that if you say, don't do that again, they won't do it again...crisis solved, no need for any messyness. If you also cannot just give an IFK here. It's either caution and IFK or nothing. Also, Advice to refs states, "Referees should take care not to consider as trickery any sequence of play that offers a fair chance for opponents to challenge for the ball before it is handled by the gk from a throw-in." So, if there's a player anywhere near where the throw-in goes, it's a moot point.
Well, I sure am glad we finally have someone here who has actually played the game at a high level. Such a rare thing! And of course that MUST mean that he is an expert in the LOTG and the duties of an official...........whew! Sure glad we got that all cleared up!
I think I have seen it at least once in various leagues, tournaments, and international games [MLS, La Liga, Seria A, EPL, Bundesliga, Gold Cup, Champions League, World Cup etc, etc, etc...].
Wake up On the two relevant aspects of Law 12 there are two key terms: directly and deliberatedly kicked . It is an offense punishable by and IFK for the keeper to handle the ball directly from a throw-in by a teammate, and on the passback, the specification is that the ball may not be deliberately kicked (ie. played with the foot) by a teammate, and again, punishable with an IFK from the point of the infringement. In other words anything else is legal, with the clarification and specific direction we find in Law 12: Decion 3, which says that a teammate may pass the ball to the goalkeepr with his/her head, chest or knee, with the sole exception of when we judge this to be a deliberte trick to circumvent the law. In other words, playing the ball back to the keepr with anything other than a kick is legal, not a foul, not misconduct, and nothing to get our knickers in a twist about as long as it occurs as part of normal play, and as long as it is not being done to circumvent the law. So, keep your whistles away from your lips and your cards in your pockets unless you judge that the play to the keeper is a deliberate timewasting tactic, because this is the basis or spirit of that change in the Laws. The Law is there not to prevent teammates from using their keeper to defend, or initiate a counter, but to prevent cynical delays of the game, and slow downs, which denied opponents the opportunity to fairly contest the ball, due to the keeprs special privileges while in his own PA.
Re: Wake up Okay........so if it is against the LOTG for a keeper to play the ball with his hands when it has been thrown in from a teammate AND it is illegal to use deliberate tactics to circumvent the LOTG.........Isnt what we are talking about using tactics to avoid the restriction against a keeper playing the ball with his hands directly from a throw in?
No one's asleep, Whipple. I believe that the premise for the original question was a defender juggling the ball up to his head and passing it back to the keeper. This is definetly a passback and the player is using a deliberate trick to circumvent the LotG (YC, IFK). Subsequently, someone posted that a defender threw the ball in and a second defender headed it back to the keeper. My position is that this is not in the SotG. The Law backs up my position in both Laws 12 and 15. We cannot judge an infraction of the Law based on it's history. Offside used to require three defenders now it's two. Throw-ins used to be awarded to the first to "touch" the ball (hence touchlines) now it's the opposing team. When FIFA rewrote the Laws to include the passback "rule" it opened up scenarios that may not have been an issue prior. ===== ADVICE TO REFEREE'S 12.21 BALL THROWN TO THE GOALKEEPER A goalkeeper infringes Law 12 if he touches the ball with his hands after he receives it directly from a throw-in taken by a teammate. The goalkeeper is considered to have received the ball directly even if he plays it in any way (for example, by dribbling the ball with his feet) before touching it with his hands. Referees should take care not to consider as trickery any sequence of play that offers a fair chance for opponents to challenge for the ball before it is handled by the goalkeeper from a throw-in. ===== Note the last sentance. This would be my position in a game environment. If, in the course of dynamic play, with opponents in possible position to make a play for the ball I would NOT make that call. However, IF there is a "set" play where the defenders and keeper work in collusion with no attackers in reasonable playing distance I would have to consider, repeat consider making that call. This is essentially what the ATR is saying. I have never seen the players do this in any pro game, or amatuer for that matter. That doesn't mean it never has, I've just never seen it. I have seen a keeper, with a DFK, lift the ball to a defender and have the defender head it back to the keeper who then handled the ball. It was called and a card was issued. We may never be in agreement on this. That's OK, as long as we can agree to disagree! Cheers
Grey and the others are correct that there is no logical distinction between the two tactics. Both involve a player inserting a "header" into the equation. However, Whipple's response is in keeping with the interpretation from USSF as passed down through the chain of instruction. Not really much room for debate as to what the official answer is - that's just the way the laws are written and currently being interpreted from above. The problem I have is that I think it is simply ludicrous that we should be concerned about either tactic. Considering how few players can actually execute either maneuver with any frequent degree of success, how on earth is this going to waste any significant amount of time in a game? After all, preventing time-wasting was the purpose of the law in the first place. Of course we all adhere to the directives we receive, but as a fan of the game, I'd be inclined to congratuation rather than criticize the player who can pull it off.