Jozy Altidore Offseason Thread 2010: Aug. 3 Jozy is back in Spain, no deals yet

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Tonerl, Jul 9, 2010.

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  1. Tonerl

    Tonerl Member+

    Arsenal
    May 10, 2006
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As you were...
     
  2. StarvingGator

    StarvingGator Member

    Jun 22, 2007
    The Hospital Bar
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    That "A" in "AFC" is anachronistic and stupid! Your league is as technically bankrupt as your country!



    /am I doing it right?
     
  3. Reignking

    Reignking Member

    Feb 16, 2005
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    Longest thread title ever. Where's the pun?
     
  4. MLSn00b

    MLSn00b Member

    Apr 3, 2008
    New York
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    Kinda like the Sun headline before the England-US match:D
     
  5. TigerRoo

    TigerRoo New Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Traralgon.Vic.
    Club:
    Hull City AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    OK! For all you "Yank Statisticians". A question has been posed on the Hull City Message Boards regarding your beloved "assists" statistics.
    During Argentina's great World Cup when Maradona received the ball well inside his own half and then went on to dribble his way past 6 English defenders before scoring his great goal, does the bloke who passed him the ball inside his own half get credited with an "assist"?
    Also, if Jozy Altidore shot and hit the post and Donovan put away the rebound, is Jozy credited with an "assist"?
    P.S. Someone on the Hull City Boards (NOT ME) sarcastically suggested that if Jozy shot on goal it would probably hit the corner flag, in which case, if it then bounced back into the penalty area and Donovan slotted it away would Jozy be credited with an "assist"?
    I think somebody was just trying to ridicule 'statistics' in general but they do have some sort of a point I guess.
     
  6. StarvingGator

    StarvingGator Member

    Jun 22, 2007
    The Hospital Bar
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    For the record, many soccer cultures use the "assist" stat. Why the English think it's an American thing, I'll never know.

    It's not a perfect stat, as you point out. It is a useful way to quantify the true offensive impact a player has, however. If you only use goals to measure how important a player is to an offense, you would presumably conclude that Xavi isn't much going forward, and is indeed probably defensive :)eek:). It's a little trickier dealing with forwards, of course.

    Enjoy the....nPower Championship?!
     
  7. Kool Herc

    Kool Herc Member

    Oct 17, 2008
    Dallas
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    Boring.
     
  8. American Arsenal

    Jun 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    Jozy doe across Europe - oh where to go?

    :cool:
     
  9. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    It's a pretty poor point. If Clint Dempsey hits a shot that bounces off of the back of Bobby Zamora and redirects into the net, Zamora would be credited with the goal (this did happen earlier in the season).

    If Donovan misfired a shot, causing the ball to hit the corner flag and if it bounced off it so hard that it came back and nailed Jozy in the back of the head and trickled into the net, Jozy would be credited with a goal too.

    The reason why every official league site and sports news organization tracks goals and assists and displays both statistics prominently is because they believe that while 1 goal or assist may be lucky or meaningless, a pattern of goals or assists tells you something meaningful about a player's contribution to his team's efforts.
     
  10. DuckYank

    DuckYank New Member

    Jan 20, 2010
    Oregon
    Club:
    Portland MLS
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    FIFA tracks assists officially.

    http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/statis...ex.html#tA=43822&tB=43876&pA=268406&pB=178734

    I guess if it's good enough for the governing body of worldwide football it should be good enough for Hull fans.
     
  11. Reignking

    Reignking Member

    Feb 16, 2005
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    Nice.

    TigerRoo: Well, for the Maradona goal, yes, the guy that passed it to him.

    As for rebounds, I don't know.

    I love assists. I never understood why there weren't secondary assists such as in hockey. More stats the better. Of course, the EPL counts PKs drawn as an assist :)
     
  12. TigerRoo

    TigerRoo New Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Traralgon.Vic.
    Club:
    Hull City AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    The trouble with 'assists' and stats in general is that they can be twisted round to suit anyone's argument. Covering a goalkeeper who has just let 3 easy goals slip through his fingers by stating that he had excellent distribution stats, excellent kicking stats and good command of his area stats doesn't make sense to me. He is there to stop the ball going into the net and anything else is irrelevant.
    You guys haven't lived unless you have studied the statistics attached to an Australian Rules Football game (a game where a player can knife an opponent and cannot technically be even sent off or receive a yellow card let alone be charged with attempted murder). I believe Aussie Rules Stats were invented to provide work for ex-players as each player has to have a 'statistician' in the commentary box to take note of his possessions, distributions, passes, kicks, hand-balls, fouls, marks, goals, behinds, injuries, free-kicks, bookings, completions, etc.,etc.,etc.
     
  13. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    They apparently track error statistics with keepers somehow too. From what I've read, Robert Green was recorded as having the most errors resulting in goals in the Premier League last season. I wonder if Capello looked at those numbers.

    Anyways, you wouldn't use a keeper's distribution stats alone to come to the conclusion that he was a top goalkeeper. Interpreting statistics is much more nuanced than that. What you might end up concluding by looking at a keeper's stats is that his strengths are distribution and handling crosses, but that his weaknesses are shot-stopping and concentration. And to your point, no you can't say all of those other stats are irrelevant. If a goalkeeper is good for 3 or 4 bad errors a season, but his assured handling of crosses prevents 5 or 6 goals that an otherwise solid shot-stopper would have conceded, then clearly a manager has to look at more than just the errors.

    Similarly, if a forward registered a lot of assists or drew a lot of fouls in dangerous positions, you wouldn't solely on that basis conclude that he was a top notch forward. But you might conclude by looking at all of the stats that he was very good at setting up teammates, using his strength, and/or taking on defenders 1 v 1, but that he struggled in front of net, had trouble winning headers, didn't cover enough ground, etc.
     
  14. El Michael

    El Michael Member

    Dec 17, 2009
    Club:
    DC United
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr


    Assists and the ability to draw PK's are important and should be part of player evaluation. Any coach or team that doesn't consider every factor is behind the curb. Player fitness, willingness to play defense, work within the team philosophy are all important. and assists and the ability to draw fouls should be at the top of the list for attacking players.

    And lets not discount the team a player plays for. It's easy for Messi and Rooney to pad stats on alstar club teams ( not saying they are not great players ), but when the playing field is evened out, world cup, even their play can be dramatically affected.


    As for the Hull City fans " sour grapes" del with it.
     
  15. TigerRoo

    TigerRoo New Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Traralgon.Vic.
    Club:
    Hull City AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    Our problem at Hull City was simply the fact that we could not attract 'quality' players. They did not want to come. That is why we expected far too much from Jozy when we found that we had a '6 million dollar man' coming to the Club. It soon became obvious that he was far from ready for this level of football. The rest of our team was made up of players who had been with us from the old third tier days and who had 'bled' for the Club but were far from comfortable in the EPL; has-been's and never-were's and others who we had to pay way over the odds to sign; and injury prone players in the twilight years of their careers.
    People can blame the lack of quality on Jozy's failure to score goals but tend to overlook that he was up against the finest defenders in the world in arguably the finest league in the world. At 19/20 years of age he was way out of his depth which explains his poor record.
    He certainly shows signs of having the ability but needs a morale-boosting season away from top-level football where he can regain some of that MLS confidence and hopefully make his mark on the world stage.
    Getting back to the main point though, if a player pulls a penalty and someone else takes it and scores, does he get the assist? If he takes the penalty himself and scores, does he get the assist as well?
     
  16. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    So you are suggesting that if a keeper makes every single save but then turns around and punts the ball 40 rows into the stands giving up a series of corner kicks for 90 minutes, thus ensuring that his team never ever has the ball the entire game, that the only thing that is relevant is the saves that he makes?

    Because it sounds like that is what you are suggesting, which is mentally retarded.
     
  17. StarvingGator

    StarvingGator Member

    Jun 22, 2007
    The Hospital Bar
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr


    I don't really follow soccer stats beyond goals and assists. It's not a sport that lends itself to stats generally.

    PKs drawn is an important measurement because PKs more often than not result in a goal. I don't think you get an assist for drawing one, but I'm not sure.

    Stats can be twisted to mean just about anything, but in the case of soccer, it's more simple than most situations. If a forward scores frequently, there's no reason to go into much detail about his other qualities (there are exceptions, which I'll get into later). Even if he never recorded an assist or drew a PK, he'd still be a valuable member of most teams. If a player doesn't score, their value is harder to judge, and this where stats like fouls drawn and assists become useful. Is the player truly useless, or does he bring value to the side, without scoring?

    Even the importance of goals has decreased significantly in recent years. The prime example is Ruud Van Nistelrooy. He scored constantly, but there was always something that seemed off about his presence. As it turned out, tactically he was killing United. The game was evolving away from poachers and independent strikers, and he was becoming something of an albatross, despite his fantastic scoring rate. Another example is Robbie Fowler. Fifteen years ago, Fowler was one of the best strikers in the EPL. Can you imagine him putting up similar numbers today, even if he was in his prime? The game shifted so quickly from that kind of player, most people didn't seem to notice.


    Sorry for the tangent. I'll tie this in with the thread by stating that I don't think we'll ever have to worry about Jozy being labeled a poacher ;)
     
  18. TigerRoo

    TigerRoo New Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Traralgon.Vic.
    Club:
    Hull City AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    Yes, Mr Starvingator, you are correct in that the game having shifted to the boring 'possession' football and 'closing down' system has stifled the midfield from supplying the forwards and thereby the lack of goals. There will be clever coaches developing new tactics and styles of player that will overcome these eventually.
     
  19. TigerRoo

    TigerRoo New Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Traralgon.Vic.
    Club:
    Hull City AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    I have read your reply a dozen times and I cannot understand the point you are trying to prove. We are talking about Association Football here not American Grid Iron. Why the hell would a goalkeeper want to 'punt' the ball into row Z every time he got hold of it - is that what you meant about being retarded? In theory, if he did this, the Manager would take him off straight away as it would be obvious that the balance of his mind was disturbed. My point was simply that the goalkeeper's job is to stop the ball from going into the net and that other stats are irrelevant. A strikers job is to put the ball into the back of the net and other stats are irrelevant.
    If Jozy, for instance, was to score 25 goals for his team next season, do you honestly believe that his fans would be spouting off about how many fouls, penalty kicks or assists he got? C'mon!
     
  20. taylor

    taylor Member+

    Jun 9, 2000
    Fav team: FC CARL ZEISS JENA
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
  21. TigerRoo

    TigerRoo New Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Traralgon.Vic.
    Club:
    Hull City AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    Oh, there they are, right down at the bottom. Imperative to the game. roflmao

    From the site mentioned above:

    Goals scored 0
    0 Goals during 1st half 0
    0 Goals during 2nd half 0
    0 Goals during 1st extra time 0
    0 Goals during 2nd extra time 0
    0 Penalties 0
    0 Goals Scored in Penalty Area 0
    0 Goals Scored from Outside Penalty Area 0
    4 Total Shots 0
    0 Shots From Penalty Area 0
    4 Shots Outside Penalty Area 0
    0 Shots on goal 0
    0 Shots on goal from Penalty Area 0
    0 Shots on goal from outside Penalty Area 0
    2 Shots Wide 0
    0 Shots wide from Penalty Area 0
    2 Shots wide from Outside Penalty Area 0
    2 Shots blocked 0
    0 Blocked shots from inside the penalty area 0
    2 Blocked Shots from outside Penalty Area 0
    0 Offsides 0
    0 Saves 0
    5 Fouls Committed 1
    6 Fouls Suffered 1
    0 Yellow cards 0
    0 Second yellow card and red card 0
    0 Red Cards 0

    182 Total Passes 150
    140 Passes Completed 101
    77% Passes Completion Rate 67%
    40 Long passes 35
    25 Long Passes complete 18
    62% Long Passes completion rate 51%
    109 Medium Passes 88
    91 Medium Passes complete 62
    83% Medium Passes completion rate 70%
    33 Short Passes 27
    24 Short Passes complete 21
    73% Short Passes completion rate 78%
    10 Corners 0
    10 Crosses 8
    2 Crosses Completed 3
    20% Crosses completion rate 38%
    2 Assists 1
     
  22. derek750

    derek750 Member+

    Apr 16, 2007
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    Given this view of things, I assume you won't be citing goals as evidence of anything regarding Jozy from this point on...
     
  23. Reignking

    Reignking Member

    Feb 16, 2005
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    Which is true, but great strides are being made in that area. It isn't easy, and it is more abstract than baseball, but it's going in the right direction.

    TigerRoo, the problem with not using stats is that we have to rely on anecdotal evidence, which is even more biased and unfair.
     
  24. TigerRoo

    TigerRoo New Member

    Aug 29, 2009
    Traralgon.Vic.
    Club:
    Hull City AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    Well, I dunno. Some of you American's have a funny opinion of our beloved game:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBkbj_S3etY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBkbj_S3etY[/ame]
     
  25. thomas222

    thomas222 Member

    Jun 15, 2010
    Re: Jozy versus fans of Hull City and Greek Superleague: The New and Improved Altidore Offseason Thr

    BBN is a satirist.
     

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