Journalistic Appraisal of USsoccerUK.com

Discussion in 'Business and Media' started by mpruitt, Jan 14, 2004.

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  1. mpruitt

    mpruitt Member

    Feb 11, 2002
    E. Somerville
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    USsoccerUK.com and Chris Bergin seem to be the Teflon Dons of the Bigsoccer community, while I understand that many posters on here have a personal relationship with Chris and his writers, I simply don't understand how people mindlessly eat up his stories which are frequently inaccurate, speculative, unattributed or gleaned from other unmentioned sources. Recently I was challenged to point out where just exactly I felt that Bergin's reporting came up short. In this post that is exactly what I attempt to do so.

    Firstly, let me say that I do respect anyone who chooses to spend their time, money and effort writing about American soccer. For that he should be commended. Secondly, I do appreciate reading his site for the purposes of seeing what might be floating around the rumor mill.

    However, due to the nature in which persons on this board react to his news stories I believe it is time for me to point out some of his journalistic shortcomings. Granted, much of my distaste for his style may stem from differing standards between American and British journalism, but none the less his audience is presumably mostly American.

    In conclusion, I do not fault Bergin and Co. personally for doing what he does. I have never met him, never spoken with him, never corresponded with him. I assume him to be a very well meaning and dedicated person. However, people will often claim that he makes a broad distinction between what he writes as rumor on his message board and what he posts as fact on his news website. I disagree.

    Thus, a journalistic appraisal of USsoccerUk.com

    1/13/2004 3:13:00
    Bergin, using unnamed MLS sources, one of which is assumed to be a rather useful poster on the Yanks Abroad board who frequently is correct about leaks, simply using his post as a source. As of this date and time, no other news organization has this information, and the Associated Press is quoting named sources that the most recent deal is not for a transfer but for a loan. Either way it is certainly not yet 'complete.'

    Another frequent misnomer by Bergin and Co. is predicting that there will be "major announcements" to come on a certain day or time, only to have them never happen. Certainly in the business of Hot Stove talk rumors and speculation abound, but Bergin reports them as fact.

    1/13/2004 5:41:00 AM
    (my emphasis added)

    Classic Bergin: Take a story from quotes from a different report and spin it into what he wants it to say. Granted at least he attributed the quotes which are fine, however, the careful use of presumptive and speculative language abounds. Smith's answer was vague? According to whom? The reader doesn't know what question the NBC reporter asked. His second comment 'showed there is a pending deal?' Where does it do that? Smith says nothing of the sort but according to Bergin, he does.

    1/13/2004 3:40:00 AM
    (again my emphasis added)

    Again, classic Bergin. As of his press time, no confirmation had been made from anyone that Moore's resignation had anything to do with C.A. At that point it had been purely speculative, later the San Jose Mercury News quoted a San Jose official on record, and then later Moore alluding himself that C.A. had something to do with it. Basically, while Bergin's statements weren't inaccurate they were at that time purely speculative and unattributed. Note again Bergin uses much of the same techniques in the article posted before. Moore 'shockingly' resigns, shockingly, according to whom? 'Without any warning?' According to whom? 'Some' may put conspiracy theorist take to the forefront? What some, who some? Again it may not be inaccurate but it's purely speculative and unattributed.

    12/3/2003 6:18:00 AM
    When asked to prove that Chris Bergin and USsoccerUK.com have a lack of creditability this is the example which I point to most often. TO my knowledge no one was ever quoted on record, including Grimandi as ever confirming this to be fact. I do know that Grimandi on his website made a vague reference to playing abroad during a time of war, but here we have Bergin saying it is 'widely believed' that he left in opposition to the war. Widely believed by whom? According to whom? If he claimed he was being heckled, where is the direct quote, if it exists I could never find it.
     
  2. mpruitt

    mpruitt Member

    Feb 11, 2002
    E. Somerville
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Feel free to agree or disagree. Obviously this isn't exactly the most well crafted thesis but it gets my point across. To some people these types of things bother them not, they bug me. Those are my oppinions, anyone else is welcome to their own. I should point out though too that in the past people seem to jump ugly with you any time you criticise Bergin and his site. If he wants to put himself out there like a professional, I believe he should be held to the standards of a professional.
     
  3. nyrmetros

    nyrmetros Member

    Feb 7, 2004
    I like Corky Bergin :)
     
  4. mpruitt

    mpruitt Member

    Feb 11, 2002
    E. Somerville
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    I'd mentioned in a YA thread that there's an innacuracy in a Bergin story at least once a week. the stories that I pulled up are only ones on his current front page. I could go back and pull examples like that probably from just about every story. The Girbandi thing is just something that had always just stood out in my mind as being absolutely blatent.
     
  5. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    You must be a journalism student. :D

    Chris has been on record many time as saying he's a rumor monger and should be taken as such. Think of him more like a tabloid and less like the New York Times.

    Just for the record, he broke Kroenke buying the Rapids, among other stories.

    Sachin
     
  6. Lord15

    Lord15 New Member

    Jun 20, 2001
    Southeast
    LOL

    I miss the Iwarp site.

    No soccer coverage...bad, any soccer coverage...good.
    (And this coverage is the best kind - crazy ass British soccer news)
     
  7. mpruitt

    mpruitt Member

    Feb 11, 2002
    E. Somerville
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Ding. I am, or rather was a journalism student. I give him credit for breakign what he does. In fact this was all in response to a post where I was congratulating him on breaking the Boca and McBride transfer stories, only to find out that wasn't the case. I'd like to see though where he's on record as calling himself a rumor monger. I certainly don't get that impression that he owns up to that status, or at least his following doesn't. The basic problem I see is, for every time he breaks a story there are five where he has stories with speculation, embelishment, and innacuracy so I may read it on his site first, but won't believe it till I see it elsewhere.
     
  8. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    Have you tried asking him?

    Sachin
     
  9. mpruitt

    mpruitt Member

    Feb 11, 2002
    E. Somerville
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Why should I? I know he's very accesiable but it's not a personal thing between me and him. I wouldn't email Peter Gammons or Jeff Bradley asking how they view themselves in the journalisic community. It's a bit of a moot point because no matter how he views himself I already have a pretty firm oppinion on how I view his site. My little manifesto there was mostly in response to how others view his site.
     
  10. Fah Que

    Fah Que Member

    Sep 29, 2000
    LA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I look at a much bigger picture. Chris Bergin's ussocceruk.com is an asset for American soccer. Not a liability. Therefore, Bergin bashing is completely stupid.

    To my knowledge, Chris has never made up quotes or fake stories. He has many valuable contacts with people behind the scene. He reports things that are both what will happen and what could happen.

    His journalist style is more entertaining than newspapers which only quotes someone saying predictable blah blah's or we have no comments at this time.
     
  11. owendylan

    owendylan Member

    May 30, 2001
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
  12. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. On McBride...he's trafficking in rumors. Clearly this is NOT evidence that he's making things up out of whole cloth. If you ever see Peter Gammons' stuff, you wouldn't be complaining about Chris. I do think he's prone to purple prose and exaggeration. But IMHO it's not as dire as you suggest, and let's face it, the standards of journalism in Britain ain't that great.

    2. At some point...I think it was likely in a thread, and not a news article; I don't care enough to look it up and be sure...he wrote that since the league (or maybe the Crew specifically; sorry my memory isn't better) are always quick to deny, their non-denial looked suspicious. This is, basically, the same technique that Josh Marshall used when the Plame affair broke to convince me (and presumably the rest of his readers) that the Bushies knew there was trouble. The appointment of the special prosecutor is another confirming big hint.

    3. When a general manager quits the week before the draft, that's shocking by any reasonable definition of the word. Plus, when he mentions America, if you didn't already have an agenda, you'd use Occam's razor and figure that he had a bit of info, but not enough to state it as fact. Subsequent events seem to prove that his original info was correct.

    4. That Grimandi thing was a long time ago. There was something to what he said. It was reported by other sources. Where Chris pretty much embarassed himself was when he hinted that a major story was coming up, one that might be on network news. That shows that Chris doesn't have a very good grasp of American culture. So what? Yeah, it was a mistake, but pretty minor.

    I don't know how far back he archives his stuff, but this point would be alot stronger for you if you went back and checked the contemporaneous stories.
     
  13. peledre

    peledre Member

    Mar 25, 2001
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maxim, your claims are ludicrous and this McCarthyism of yours is just plain stupid. They apparently went to press a little early on the McBride story, but all of you claims, such as having inaccuracies in his stories on a weekly basis are completely groundless. You've so far provided two stories, one of which has nothing inaccurate in it.

    Every once in a while you put some leaks together from several different sources, and it looks like 2+2=4, but turns out to equal 5. I think that's what happened on the McBride story. Chris may take a few liberties in his headlines and assessments of certain cituations and conditions, but it's by no means unwarranted.

    Yes, it was shocking that Moore resigned. How often does the GM of a league winning team resign? If not for personal or family reasons than it must be something business related and equating it to a change in ownership is not an unreasonable conclusion. Also, do you think that someone would actually go on record saying that Americans in Denver hated Grimandi or vice versa? That would be suicide. So, you better pony up and provide proof of all these supposed "weekly inaccuracies", in the news section of his site, or shut up.
     
  14. mpruitt

    mpruitt Member

    Feb 11, 2002
    E. Somerville
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Heh no, but the article makes an interesting point. While the stuff that I'm poinging out isn't geek minutia like the Golf Instructure was this about sums it up.

    In response:
    The point being that when a journalist embellishes, and granted he is a columist, it is pandering to the reader. Present the facts, hopefully write it in an entertaining and throughtfull way, but if the facts aren't exciting enough don't embellish. Let your reader make a decision about how meaningfull they are, it's not a reporter's job to do so. And while embelleshment isn't the same as being inaccurate, the biggest thing a journalist has is his crediability. Little thigns like sensationalism and embellseshment call into question ones crediability, and once that happens then it's pretty much trying to put the tooth paste back into the tube.
     
  15. mpruitt

    mpruitt Member

    Feb 11, 2002
    E. Somerville
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    I just wrote 1,100 words defending my position and you want more? Fine. But again why am I being lambasted for pointing out some very valid things for this guy? Would you be jumping ugly with me if this was Marc Connelly or Jeff Bradley? I'll get back to work then.
     
  16. Bonji

    Bonji Moderator

    Feb 4, 2003
    Denver, Colorado
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I simply enjoy having a site that is going to post early rumors which are true or not. I think it is fun to read about something possibly happening in MLS. There aren't too many other reliable sites around providing the same service. We're all just BS artists on bigosccer, so who cares anyway. I'm not looking for prize winning writing. If I wanted that I'd read USA Today....kidding.
     
  17. mpruitt

    mpruitt Member

    Feb 11, 2002
    E. Somerville
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    I will go back and dig up more. But note that, I never said he makes things up, or at least I don't believe that I did. I believe that he uses unnamed sources far too often which is dubious and inherently lacks credability. However, he rarely in my oppionion frames the information he gets from those sources as anything but speculation and rumor. He doesn't even have say, 'this is just a rumor but...' However, his sources are always so far off the record it's ridiculous. The fact that he even cited 'sources within MLS' was amazing, it's usually not even that clear. It's interesting that you bring up Peter Gammons though, because at least locally Peter has been taking a lot of hits because a lot of his sources have started to dry up and he was wrong more often than not about that whole A-Rod mess.
     
  18. Lord15

    Lord15 New Member

    Jun 20, 2001
    Southeast
    Seriously.

    Iwarp.

    Anyone???

    Note:
    I can't believe anyone bitches about shoddy news coverage anymore. Can someone give me a couple of always credible, fact checking, 95% acurate news sources?
     
  19. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Maxim,
    I more-or-less agree with you. You'll find that many of those that do have learned to just stay out of it. Anyone seen "attacking" Bergin - even me - finds themself feeling the wrath of Bergin apologists.

    You've hit the nail on the head. The main "problem" is a disconnect between what is acceptable journalism and reporting standards between the United States and Britain. What he does is fine in England, but very borderline and unprofessional by American standards. I'm not saying that American standards are -better- just that they are -different-.

    This difference led to many long discussions years back when Bergin was a regular poster on BigSoccer.

    What exacerbated the problem is that Chris would launch into vitriolic attacks on posters that challenged what he posted as "fact". Indeed at least two TOS rules are due to Chris's behavior. One involved his signature, the other the 144 minute edit rule. Chris, after cooling down, would often go back and delete or edit posts that he shouldn't have made in the first place. When you delete the first post in a thread, the entire thread goes away. It now takes a moderator to delete a thread or edit a post after 144 minutes. Chris eventually left BigSoccer.

    I personally have no axe to grind with Bergin. I think he does a wonderful job digging up news regarding MLS and presenting it to a starving US audience and a curious British one.

    His site is a service, but it is best viewed from a British perspective, not an American one.

    And if he needs photo stock for his site, I'm more than willing to work something out!
     
  20. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Last time I checked, the Iwarp site was still there.

    Yep
    http://usasoccer.iwarp.com/index.html

    Warning: Have your popup blocker turned on before clicking!
     
  21. Lord15

    Lord15 New Member

    Jun 20, 2001
    Southeast
    Vielen Dank

    Outstanding!!!
    (On a mac - Safari impervious to pop ups - worth having just for that!!)

    I see:
    Wolff to Balckburn
    New Stadium in KC
    Donovan back to Leverkusen in 2002

    Now this makes Bergin look like "credible journalist to be named later"

    U-20 photos kicked ass Mr Mead.
     
  22. mpruitt

    mpruitt Member

    Feb 11, 2002
    E. Somerville
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    12/2/2003 4:46:00 AM
    Overstatement, editorialising, editorialising/sensationalising. In that order corresponding to the my emphasis points.

    In a bit of actual phrasing, essentially counterdicts overstatement he made in the first graph. I will give Bergin this though, in that article he refferenced where he got his quotes from. When he does steal all his material from once source then spice it up to meet his needs he will reference the original source in the first quote.

    12/1/2003 8:22:00 PM
    For you Bergin apologists, or Bergin Ball Washers (has a nice ring to it,) this is also classic Bergin. He got this one right, dead on the money. But he cites 'multiple sources.' Really? What kind of sources? Couldn't I be a source? Where are these unnamed sources from? He cites multiple ones which would tend to lend credability but we don't have any idea who they are. As I've pointed out before IMO - and I can corrilate with his original source articles if you like but that will take more time - IMO he simply copies what other people write and puts it in his own form. 3rdDegree can tell you that they broke this story about 3 hours before Bergin did. In the most recent McBride story the assumption was that Bergin took a soruce from a well placed Bigsoccer poster. Without giving any indication of who his multiple sources are, how am I to assume he's not just gleaning all of his information from 3rd Degree.com?

    12/1/2003 4:30:00 PM
    This had been reported in other places and without looking back I can't say whether his site had this before or after it was reported in the Post by Geoff. But again, sources from where? Shock counter bid? Sounds awfully dramatic to me, why don't you let me determind how shocking it is.

    12/1/2003 6:08:00 AM
    I mean... I just don't even know where to begin? "Too good" Who said that? Presumably one of his agents? But he doesn't say? Who's saying he's too good for MLS? That'd stir up quite a pot wouldn't it. "Biggest spin doctor campaigns ever to be involved..." According to what? According to whom? In refference to what? There's not a single quote in there from any one of Mathis' supposide agents. Blatent sensationalism, I don't assume that Bergin is just making this up but I think here he comes pretty close.

    11/27/2003 8:10:00 AM
    Nowhere in the story does it say what exactly he was mulling over. Or if he mulled anything over. I'm not sure if Bergin means that the decision was inherently difficult, he must because Hammilton doesn't suggest anything of the sort. Who's many? Many bigsoccer posters? Was expected? By who?

    Here's the only quote from Hamilton or anyone else in the article:

    11/26/2003 1:24:00 PM
    This was actually very well written. I'd also like to point out that I up until now have not noted the individual authors of each article, and many time's i may have sweepingly refered to the article as Bergin's work when it may have not been the case. However, assuming that it's his cite and he'd most likely have full editorial control there is still oanis placed on him. But anyways, as opposed to the previous artivle - citing the against the popular landscape - at least it's citing what was just the oppinion, not some nameless 'people.' You can't say the same for 'widely expected.' I think that's a bit of an exageration, just because a bunch of people on a message board think it's going to happen doesn't mean it's 'widely expected.' Then at the end he does cite the actual word 'rumors!' Kudos...

    Okay. That's about as far as I'm going back for tonight. But to say that I'm just pointing out isolated incidents I think is just flat out ridiculous. His style of embelleshment, sensationalism, and using frequently inacurate unnamed sources is a patern. Take it or leave it.
     
  23. OldFanatic

    OldFanatic Member

    Jan 12, 2004
    Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Interesting that Bergin seems to be acknowledging his stories going wrong, as you were saying this.

    http://www.ussocceruk.com/USsoccerUK_Forum/thread-view.asp?threadid=1307&start=130

    Peter Wilt seems to like Bergin quite well as well, BTW. I remember having listening to a Peter Wilt interview on BigSoccer Radio once when Bergin had called in from England.
     
  24. mpruitt

    mpruitt Member

    Feb 11, 2002
    E. Somerville
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    1. He said the deal was done. 2. He got the 'major announcement wrong' 3. Going to press a little early, jumping the gun when you don't have all the facts is poor reporting and as is inacurate as inacurate. 4. 2+2= 5. Is a pretty good way to sum up how I too view his site. I wait to see from someone else if the information really ads up. Taking liberties in headlines and assesments is sloppy, pandering, and lacks credability, if you think their warranted then fine.
     
  25. mpruitt

    mpruitt Member

    Feb 11, 2002
    E. Somerville
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Well kudos for him for owning up to that and tryign to hold himself to a high standard, He does name the number of sources he has, but only alludes to where one is. However, why not put a correction/apology on his news site? Wouldn't that be more crediable. He also cites 3 stories wrong in 18 months. I wonder which ones those were. I don't know if his numbers are right or wrong I'm just curious. If at very least it appears that my criticism is completely baseless as some would have you believe if he's responding in that way...

    I mentioned Gammons in an earlier post and speculation was that Gammons was getting a lot of stuff wrong because his sources were just using him to put either test balloons or misinformation into the public domain. Good sources are a journalist's best friend, however, a journalist who a source knows won't reveal his name can be very valuable for people 'in the know' for a variety of reasons.
     

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