Jonathan Wilson's Fantasy Tournament - Best 16 clubs ever

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by JamesBH11, Jun 22, 2011.

  1. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
  2. burco

    burco New Member

    Apr 10, 2011
    Re: Interesting links

    Me too, I posted the link before I read the whole thing but when I saw the 5-0 I was surprised that it comes from someone like JW who knows the history, I mean Santos THE greatest of all time somehow are underrated by europeans, for instance he has barcelona beating honved 2-0 at home? Im pretty sure that with Di stefano's Real madrid he will make them win by huge margins or enter draws. But at least he made Santos qualify the groupstage so let's wait and see.
     
  3. cyprusholidays

    cyprusholidays New Member

    May 20, 2011
    Re: Interesting links

    Nice information..Thanks for sharing..
     
  4. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Re: Interesting links

    Stuff happens. Small sample size.
     
  5. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Re: Interesting links

    understood your point and it's correct.

    However, Wilson is among respectful writers of Football and I am surprised if he lacks of knowledge of Pele rather than he is a pure "Euro-centric"?

    The fact Pele destroyed most big teams in Europe (with Santos) from 59 to 66 plus the most memorable and tangible fact was his STATS at 2 consecutive wins in Intercontinental cup (62 and 63 which is EXACTLY the team Santos 62 that J.Wilson chose) are there to against J Wilson's "imagination" and "vision"!

    1- Individual:
    Pele got 7goals+3ass/3 games against Benfica and AC Milan (UCL winners of 62 and 63)

    2- Santos team:
    62 : Santos 8 Benfica 4
    63: Santos 5 AC Milan 2

    Combine the 2, we can tell Santos under Pele's leadership won over two UCL winners by a good margin, from individual stats to team stats.


    ===============================================

    This is a bit off topic, but it's also a relevant INFO ;)

    http://www.rsssf.com/tablesi/intconclub62.html
     
  6. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Re: Interesting links

    He didn't even mention Pele in his writeup, maybe he was injured. :D


    I think the writer of this article is aware of the facts you listed, he just wanted to create a major upset - no bad intentions (Eurocentric) behind that imo.
     
  7. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    I was tempted checking the link but then I read this about Barca 2011 and Santos 1962.

    Jonathan Wilson gets a lot of praise and he knows a lot, but when I read "Inverting The Pyramid" I found so many mistakes and wrong assertions (which I also found in some of his articles published online) that I do not give that much attention to his writing anymore.
     
  8. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I do agree with this to a certain extent. Inverting the Pyramid owes a huge debt to many of the books that went before.

    Except for the stuff on Eastern Europe (where he is expert) much of it is a rehash of a number if others.

    His new magazine The Blizzard is good though.
     
  9. burco

    burco New Member

    Apr 10, 2011
    Can you give examples of his mistakes?!
     
  10. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    When I read the book about two years ago, I didn't write down when I found a mistake, which I regret as I found a fair bit of them. I only remembered the grave ones afterwards and pointed towards some of them in this thread:

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18707257&postcount=8
     
  11. SirWellingtonSilva

    May 30, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    What the blazes are man utd 99 doing there? they were one penalty kick miss by bergkamp in extra time away from being knocked out of the fa cup, got beaten by tottenham 3-1 in the league cup, won the cl thanks to a gross strike of luck after being outplayed, and scraped the league by 1 point more than arsenal leaving them with a measley 79 point total. Last day of the season they had to beat arsenals ever so motivated north london rivals tottenham to win. In four attempts they couldn't even beat runners up arsenal and chelsea once, in fact arsenal humbled them 3-0. Without Keane kicking players all over the place they were nothing.
     
  12. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Yep, Wilson also selected them before the 1968 team too.

    They drew Santos and Honved in this tournament too.
     
  13. impalemeplz

    impalemeplz Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    Sydney
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    As great as that manutd99 midfield was it was also tactically flawed. I think what it came to, at the time, was the core being overly reliant on keane playing at least a 9/10 to win the big games. They wouldnt sniff anywhere near this sci-fi cup but if it isnt for another huge stroke of luck (or a miracle game from the big dane).
     
  14. ForeverRed

    ForeverRed Member+

    Aug 18, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    That's also one of my gripes with Wilson, whose work I really respect and appreciate, but he does tend to underplay German football's influence and part on the game.
     
  15. burco

    burco New Member

    Apr 10, 2011
    I could say the same about the current Barcelona and Messi, other than that I agree with how Man utd 99 is so overrated in the English media. They only had drama about them and late comebacks, they weren't an alien like team who wiped the floor with their opponents.
     
  16. impalemeplz

    impalemeplz Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    Sydney
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Exactly, yet, I do understand the hype above all else. They had an unbelievably strong core with most probably the best 3 crossers, giggs-neville-becks, on one team at anytime. What they lacked was a true genius. Someone to eclipse scholes. That one true offensive game-breaker who could also be classed as a physical specimen. Its essentially what let teams come at them, and overwork keano, without having to worry about a rivaldo, figo, henry, kaka, etc, destroying you on the other end.

    I disagree about the alien part. They wiped Arsenal a few times. Should of wiped Inter in that 99 fixture.
     
  17. burco

    burco New Member

    Apr 10, 2011
    1st bold, not sure about giggs crossing ability being top notch as he was always criticized for it likewise for neville. 2nd bold I disagree as what I meant about alien was teams who broke records, the mold and made big teams look really bad. Man utd beating the hell of their domestic rivals a few times doesn't cut it as many teams can claim that, I'm talking about teams who were so strong that it becomes boring and predictable almost like the current barcelona.
     
  18. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    I find Wilson's article to be flawed. For instance, River lose both games because they faced pressure teams. His logic seems to be that any team who applies pressure, will beat slow teams, regardless of their technical level. The current Barca would not keep a clean sheet against Santos. That is rubbish! Santos' defence would have problems but Barca's would struggle more. What is more rubbish is that Man Utd '99 is equal to Pele's Santos.

    Flamengo '81 isn't equal to the great Milan side of the late 80s.
     
  19. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Particularly striking to me was in the chapter on the attacking sweeper how Beckenbauer appeared to be merely a footnote while the great protagonist was Velibor Vasovic.

    The underplaying part on the German game in my opinion might also have been due to one of this German sources being Wolf Biermann. That guy is a specialist in downplaying the level of German football prior to the 2000s and I am fairly sure he is the guy who told Wilson that pressing didn't take hold in German football until the 1990s.

    Generally I think such an all-time tournament should not be decided by one single man, even if that man is J.Wilson. In order to even out extreme opinions (like him suggesting Barca 2011 beating Santos 1962 by 5-0) at least another guy should have been taken part in this.

    I have the feeling Wilson is on a path of establishing Barca 2011 as the greatest club side ever with exercises like this.

    Also check his recent comparison of Barca'11 with Milan'89 which he had Barca winning by 2-0 only due to the change of the off-side rule being interpreted in Barca's favor; he could have easily done it the other way round and let them play under the old off-side rule but strangely that was no option to him.
     
  20. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    I can also only assume that he's using modern refereeing as the standard for this exercise. Given some of their players reactions to being brushed by an opponent, I can't imagine the 2011 Barcelona side being particularly partial to the tackles that would have been permitted in the time of the Santos or Honved teams.
     
  21. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich

    This and what equipment is being used is another question. If old leather balls and footwear is used, Barca and other more recent teams would have some problems adopting to that. Looking at Zoltan Czibor's excellent goal in the 1961 European Cup final vs. Benfica, one wonders if today's stars could score a goal like that with old equipment.

    Or the other way around, how comfortable would it be for vintage stars to be able to use modern equipment?
     
  22. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    These days the "slower pace" of vintage football is usually the main argument of modernists when claiming the "superiority" of current football.

    However back in the day South American teams usually played a slower brand of football than northern European teams, with less pressure and physical rigidity applied, but more technical, and still they were able to beat these pacier and more pressing teams very often.

    I think it is just too simplistic to argue that "higher pace = automatic win" in cross-decade comparisons.
     
  23. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    I can't see why J.Wilson picked Bayern 1975 as his team of choice? Of all Bayern teams that won the European Cup, the 1975 team is clearly the weakest. They finished 10th in the league and struggled against relegation for most of that season. He should have picked the 1974 side, which was arguably the greatest ever Bayern side. The 1975 Bayern team is probably not only the worst Bayern side to lift a European trophy but also the worst German side to win the European Cup.
     
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Interesting. Was that due mainly to loss of form, injuries,ageing of players, changing of personnel or a combination(compared to 1974)?
     
  25. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    The main reason was that the major players lacked motivation. Six of them had won the European Championship in 1972 and the same six had won the World Cup in 1974. The team had won three successive German championships between 1972 and 1974. Then they also won the European Champions Cup in 1974. Basically, they had achieved everything in those three years that a player can achieve with a club side and a national team. The start of the pre-season preperation phase and the end of the 1974 World Cup was felt by many players as too short. Gerd Müller stated at the start of the 1974 preparation that he can't stand to see a football anymore. Then the preparation basically consisted of Bayern playing friendly games in order to generate income for the club. Then the club sold Paul Breitner in the middle of the preparation phase, a key player and always highly motivated. Breitner wanted to leave because he saw that the club was going in the wrong direction and he took the first chance, and the club also was more than happy of selling him as he was always an outspoken person ready to criticize things when he felt it was due.

    There hardly were any serious training sessions, it was one or two friendly games in July/August '74 right until the start of the season. The result of this miserable preparatio was a 0-6 to defeat at the start of the season to Kickers Offenbach.

    Gerd Müller generally was in pitiful form almost the whole first half of the season (he scored only once in the first 9 Bundesliga games) and even Beckenbauer was not his assured self. Only Sepp Maier in goal had a tremendous season. Bayern was a very unbalanced team in the mid-1970s, a handful of world class players (Beckenbauer, Maier, Müller) and 2-3 players of international class (U.Hoeness, Schwarzenbeck, Roth - the fledging 18-year-old Rummenigge not counted) coupled with a bunch of average and even substandard players. This Bayern side was totally dependant on the few world class players always carrying the team, which they did marvellously in 1973-74, but in 1974-75, this didn't work out domestically. They got their stuff together in the European Cup, though, and ended up defending their 1974 title, which came totally unexpected to German viewers at the time.
     

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