Poor poor pitiful OH. Only what, some 30 caps for England to date? [Actually, only a paltry 29 caps]. What a waste of a career. All over at 24 yrs old according to you and other Cdn soccer experts. Where did it go wrong Owen?
What I don't get is how you can support the Whore for his decision, but at the same time, you can go onto the Holland forum and berate the posters there because the Dutch want Jono DeGuzman?
It comes down to a personal decision by the player. OH made his and I would have preferred he chose Canada. But I cannot call him a whore for choosing England. He is certainly more English than German despite what some people in Toronto seem to think. Jonathan can make that same decision as he is certainly becoming Dutch having been there since he was 12. I find the contrived accelerated citizenship process that Holland would have to use to cap him unpalateable, not his choice. That's what I was criticizing in the Holland forum, related to the Kalou case. I do think that Jonathan playing for Holland in fact makes more sense to me than Owen playing for England as I would base eligibility on your birthplace or resident country only. But given the FIFA rules today, it's down to the player.
That's a fair assessment of both cases. Despite this, I will continue to call OH a Whore. If he hadn't lied about playing for Canada, I may have eventually respected his decision.
Just curious about the Toronto reference here. Maybe I've missed something, but I haven't seen anyone in this thread that is from Toronto suggesting that Hargreaves is more German than English.
Dec. 26, 2005. 07:13 AM Cathal Kelly http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=970081593064 "Holland has a better shot than Canada. Canada can barely qualify," Bobby de Guzman, Jonathan's father, told the Star's Jim Byers last week about his son's conundrum. "He loves Canada and is proud to be Canadian. But I don't know. It's still up in the air." The only reponse to this is that if you love your Country and are proud, you go to bat for your country regardless of what level their at, simple as that. There is absolutely no arguement for him suiting up for another Country ... In Turino in a month, while your watching Iginla, Sakic and company, think about how you feel right then ... and then refer back to this thread ... you'll see how ridiculous the very idea of one of our athletes, regardless of sport, playing for another country really is. Im confident he'll do the right thing. All of a sudden I feel like going to Tim Hortons, can I get anyone anything while Im out? (as if I really didnt know the answer).
On the bright side, his brother Julian made his first appearance back in the Deportivo starting 11 yesterday. He played well and went the full 90 minutes in a 1-0 home win over Valencia in the quarters of the Copa Del Rey. Deportivo went down to 10 men in the 34th minute and held on to win thanks to an iffy penalty. Julian did alot of running around and defended well the whole game from his holding midfield position.
I’ve just read most of the posts about this young guy, and I’ve heard him called unpatriotic, traitorous, money-grubbing, and vainglorious. I’m a big fan of Canadian Soccer too, and of course we would love to have de Guzman, but he is in no way a “traitor.” Since when is a desire for glory and personal fulfillment a bad thing? What do you think motivates an athlete to train and fight and strive to be the best he can be? Money? Patriotism? Pleasing his father? No way. It’s inner passion and drive and grit. Have you ever heard of a top-level athlete who wasn’t driven and ambitious? He’s being criticized for the very things that make him a great player! He’s a footballer. Do you think he lies in bed at night fantasizing about giving Canada a slight improvement in International football? He dreams of kissing the World Cup, just as Canadian boys dream of drinking from the Stanley Cup. It’s the pinnacle of his chosen sport. It’s his dream, and of course it supercedes any feeling of patriotism he may have. How does one fulfill his potential without competing at the highest level possible? Do we criticize the Canadians who choose to play for the Stanley Cup instead of suiting up for Canada at the World Championships? Are they crass and unpatriotic? Of course not. They’re chasing their dreams. It might be different if he’d never been to Holland, but he emigrated when he was 12! Since when is an immigrant less than a full citizen, in Canada or Holland? A very un-Canadian thought, that. He’s a Dutch citizen (or soon will be?) and he probably wouldn’t have developed into the player he is had he not been playing in Holland. And who is to say that young Canadian footballers will not be inspired by de Guzman if he takes the orange and plays for the World Cup? Not because he “left” Canada behind, but because he’s is proving that Canadians can compete at the highest level. He may well do more in the long run for Canadian soccer in orange than he ever could in red and white. If he chooses to play for Canada it would be a noble sacrifice, but he’d be sacrificing, even betraying everything he’s worked for, and no one has the right to expect that of another. Canada is a great country because we allow our citizens the freedom to chase their own dreams, and we allow and encourage people from other countries to come to Canada and pursue their own goals just as Holland does. My best friend’s great grandfather, when he was probably around de Guzman’s age, died in some muddy battlefield in, ironically, Holland, in the name of this kind of freedom. Don’t ask de Guzman to give it up. He was born in Canada but we don’t own his soul.
Very interesting first post GoCanada ... VERY interesting indeed. Allow me to get my point across here without even a word ... If your Canadian, if your proud, if your patriotic ... the red and white IS the dream. If you cant see that, then go...
Times are changing Times are changing, beginning to see much more of this new reality. About time! Love the last paragraph. http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Corbella_Licia/2006/06/18/1638909.html
Get Greg Kerfoot to pay Jonathan De Guzman and other reluctant Canadians to play for their country. http://www.gobigred.ca/forum/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/216.html#000001
Yeah that's a good idea. Make them truly "professional" mercenaries for their own country. Big difference between funding camps and "bribing" players. They already are paid for NT appearances, they don't need to double dip like a Liberal party member. IIRC Kerfoot has done this before, funding NT women's camps.
Semantics! Pay their parents as caddies at golf tournaments, who cares. Get Jonathan De Guzman on the team, otherwise the OH loophole will continue to KILL CDN soccer. The CSL has to end this trend otherwise it will be another generation before CDN gets back to the world stage.
And where is this bribe money supposed to come from? The mafia? Consider that the English head coach basically makes the equivalent of the whole Canadian budget for a year. Not the Canadian senior men's budget, the budget to run every program under the CSA.
Hard & Fast Your nation of birth should define and determine your nationality! Hard & Fast FIFA’s bureaucrat’s determined that a player’s nation of birth was insignificant; see FIFA’s World Cup Bylaws. Source = http://www.fifa.com/documents/static/regulations/Statutes_09_2005_EN.pdf Section titled : Eligibility to play for Association teams – Index VII, Article 15, pages 60–61 Hard & Fast Politics and $$$$ will always undermine the integrity of sports, fair play and competition. Hard & Fast Jonathan de Guzman (1987,Toronto, Ontario, Canada) is Canadian. Owen Hargreaves (1981, Calgary, Alberta, Canada) is no more an Englishman than Iain Hume is Canadian (1983, Edinburgh, Scotland). Hard & FastThe Canadian Soccer Association has and continues to be nothing less than a failure, in any sense of measurement, i.e., administratively, financially, techincally, ... etc.
Kind of kills the whole idea of immigration doesn't it. There's a word that comes to mind, hmm what is it, you know the one that Debra Barone always calls Ray. It's on the tip of my tongue.
Huh? The Red and White is the dream? For whom? Certainly not for any Canadian hockey player I've ever heard speak about his dreams. Sure, playing for Canada is always considered an honour, but it's a secondary goal at best for players and fans (including Paul Henderson, no doubt). If you believe patriotism is more important than personal achievement and striving to reach the highest level of your sport, then fine, I respect that, but your feelings are not shared by the very vast majority of athletes and fans, and you're in for bitter disappointment if you expect players to opt for their country over their personal ambitions. "Your childhood dream of winning the Stanley Cup finally comes true and all that work you put forth through minor hockey and junior, it's all paid off from today." --Cam Ward, Conne Smythe trophy winner. You don't pass up a chance to play with the big boys in order to be a big fish in a small pond. You don't get better that way. Top athletes regularly forgo chances to play with their countries in order to further their careers. Call them whores if you must, but I call them dedicated and courageous. "Rod Brind'Amour cries out in shame after betraying his country's chances at the World Championships by selfishly opting to stay in the NHL and go for the Cup. What a whore." And if the best response to my sincere points you can come up with is to wave the flag (or the '72 Series) in my face and drag out the ol' "I'm-a-patriot-and-anybody-who-disagrees-with-me-isn't tactic," then fire away. It'll only mean that you don't have a valid rebuttal to make...
Of course you're right, what hockey player would ever want to play for Canada. Good to have you posting my old friend. See Debra Barone reference
I wonder how it benefits a player economically to be the most hated player on the English NT. Mind you, I guess he can rely on his Harry Rosen money to make him feel better about his decision.
What your missing is that theres a big difference between representing a club and a national team, two totally differnet things. Were not asking him to leave Feynorood for Canada are we? Anyhow mate, I didnt mean to offend by trying to get my point across, looks like that has happenned, so my part in this discussion ends here ... we'll just see what happens.
Steve Nash is an example of what one great player can do for development of a secondary sport in Canada. He was born in South Africa and grew up on Vancouver Island. I think his achievements are already greater than if he was just another great star playing for the USA. OH and De Guzman should understand this. No one will remember their contributions to England or Holland but in Canada they would be idols.
Hey Genius, I’ll dumb it down for ya, – Marc Bircham! When did Bircham emigrate from England and immigrate to Canada? or When do you think Bircham will emigrate from England and immigrate to Canada? Do you think Bircham filed income tax returns while he was representing Canada? Would he have been considered a resident or a non-resident? Personally I think his category was more suitably defined as occasional visitor. How many players had to sit and watch Bircham play out his version of "Robbie Savage" football? How many players didn't get an opportunity because the CSA imported a stiff that was 2 generations removed from Canadian soil and had never even set foot in the country before wearing the NT kit. Note: send thank you to Bircham for his contribution to our WC efforts – hope he enjoyed himself at our expense. add moaca to dumb ass poster’s list
today's Toronto Sun, "Alex Bunbury, for years one of Canada's top players and a professional star in Portugal, wonders why he hasn't been asked to give back to the sport in his homeland. I never went asking or knocking on doors, but I can tell you this, no one ever approached me and said, 'Alex Bunbury, with your name and what you've done in the game you should come back here and give back to the young people." source= http://torontosun.com/Sports/Columnists/Longley_Rob/2006/06/20/1642689.html One could wonder why he didn't just volunteer?