So, let me get this straight. Williams is such a good player that JK has to play him out of position to make sure he is on the field, but he isn't good enough to get into the game for a very mediocre Bundesliga team? Based on this, the USMNT talent level seems to be slipping.
Perhaps it is - Lichaj can't break into a crappy EPL team, Boca is playing D4, Onyewu can't break into a Portuguese side, Guzan can't beat out an error prone old guy. Boyd is an on again off again starter in Austria! Dempsy can't even make the starting team at his club. I think you are on to something- the USMNT talent level is slipping. Gone are the days glory days when Championship players got time at full back or the shining days of Albright as a wingback! Say it slowly in the dark: ohwatagoosiam, ohwatagoosiam, ohwatagoosiam...
I wasn't altogether serious, but if you can still make your silly noises after thinking about the kind of lineup we put together in the Confed Cup final in 2009, then please proceed. I'll stand by the point that out talent level was such in 2009 that we wouldn't have played any mediocre Bundesliga benchwarmer (OK this is probably unfair to Williams at this point) out of position. P.S. Personally, I think Chris Albright could have rode the bench just fine in his prime at a mediocre Bundesliga club, and he wasn't played out of position.
But your making things up. Williams hurt himself end of last season, was pulled away for a US game and has sat one game. Albright stunk as a wingback for the USMNT btw. Dolo started for the USMNT when he was in the B2. The point is there is no correlation and you're making pissy queeny posts for no reason. If you have an actual point about the USMNT and the use of players, there's a spot for it, but some silly buckshot snipe at who knows - Jurgen? The rash of Germerican call-ups? Your foot fungus flaring up? - in a game day thread requires equally absurd responses. The level of talent at 09 Confed cup was pretty darn good. The question is who is the clearly better player Williams is kicking to the curb when he get started "out of position." I can tell you it's not Alldark!
In 2009 we didn't win in Azteca either. Look, it's a cheap shot from you for whoknows what reason. It makes no sense to slag Williams for not starting one game when we have played plenty of guys with way more bench time. I'm not emotionally invested in any of the three of JK, Williams or the Bund, it just seemed like a pissy cheap shot but I'm cranky tonight so I will leave it at that.
I am not slagging Williams. I am asking whether the talent level on the USMNT has dropped off since recent times (2009 to be exact)? Or, alternatively, if JK is making a mistake?
Or, alternatively, if Williams single game sitdown after a late season injury and National team travel is a one-off. You should look back at the Confed cup lineup - remember Benny F? - dropped by Derby, playing in a soon-to-be relegated Danish team. Marvel Wynne on the bench. Clark - who never caught on as a regular starter in Germany after the Confed cup, Oneywu was a failed EPL loanee who had yet to figure for Milan. Jonathan Spector - who can't get a USMNT sniff these days. I happen to think it's a silly exercise in general, but to try to extrapolate the skill curve of the USMNT from one guy in one game is really just stupid. How did that Albright thing work out for the USMNT?
Possible. But my point that Williams isn't good enough that a team at the USMNT should have to play him out of position to keep him in the lineup remains, in my opinion, a fair one. After all, I don't think Williams was always a starter last season, though I am not skilled enough with Kicker to more carefully analyze that point. Come on. None of these guys were played out of position to shoe horn them into the starting lineup. Gooch was not good enough to play for a Champions League Team, not a mediocre Bundesliga team, and Bradley wasn't forcing him to play in midfield to keep him in the lineup. Benny F, Marvell Wynne, and even Rico Clark, weren't even starters when the top players were available and none of them were shoehorned into an inappropriate position to keep them starting. Spector was a fill-in and right back is one position he is quite capable of playing. Once again, I recognize that the USMNT has never been made up of guys who never ride the bench in Europe. My point is whether JK's need to play Williams out-of-position indicates a flaw in JK's thinking or a drop in talent from the USMNT's highpoint in 2009. So you said. I think you wanted to fight for some reason as the point really is a simple one that you can agree with or not.
Why are the only two options Flaw in JK's thinking or Drop in Talent? JOB was played "out of position" once in a while. Frankie Heydude. Tony Sanneh, Jon Spector, just to name a few. Do you know how many times Jones has played LM for his club? (BTW, Williams had something like 17 league starts and 7 subs last season, his first at Hoffenheim. He was injured for a few games as well.) Where does Edu play for his club? Cameron? It was just a silly post that might not even be true, something you admit yourself. So maybe the answer is Klinsman knows what Williams brings to the RM in a Christsmas tree. And maybe it's enough to beat Mexico away. That's possible too.
What is silly is to go out of your way to try to inflate a simple opinion into World War III. If you want to argue that Williams is not being played by JK in a position that he is not suited for (and IMHO, again, Heydude, Sanneh, Spector, Cameron, Edu may play multiple positions, but IMHO they were not, or at least not repeatedly, played in positions that they are not suited for), then that's a fine argument. But the provacative language and the repeated attempts at distortion and distraction are not, in my opinion. I appologize for starting this nonsense.
It's not necessary to be "skilled enough with Kicker." For future reference: Start here and then click on the score of a game. Then click on the "match stats" tab for the line-up and other relevant information.
I'd just chime in with two points about Williams relevant for the prior discussion between freisland and Martin Fischer. 1. Williams started the majority of games he was available for Hoffenheim last season, albeit a narrow majority and not counting games where he was injured, suspended, or otherwise unavailable. At worst, that indicates that he is a rotational player for Hoffenheim, rather than a benchwarmer. He's also young enough to have been eligible for the Olympics this go-around, which means it's highly possible that he develops into something more than that by the end of the cycle -- I'd assume that Klinsmann is betting on that happening and is trying to integrate him into the team early. 2. I'm not sure Klinsmann thinks Williams is so good that he has to play him out of position to squeeze him into the lineup. I'm guessing it's more that when Donovan or Dempsey isn't available, Klinsmann doesn't see a lot of strong options for the US on the wing and can't find anyone playing there at a high enough level professionally (which probably isn't that different from 2009 either), so he looks at the seemingly endless list of international quality holding midfielders we have and tries to shoehorn one or two of them that could conceivably play out wide (like Torres due to his skill on the ball or Williams due to his lower level experience at fullback) into that position. Not that I agree with the thinking, but personally I do believe that's what the thinking is. It's also possible that Klinsmann simply wants one of his outside mids to play like an additional holding midfielder or fullback.
Both good points. I don't know if it irked freisland or not, but I thought Martin Fischer was using D. Williams' shoulder as a gun rest in order to take pot shots at JK. It was, in my opinion, inappropriate in a game day thread.
If Johnson spends the next 3 seasons playing defensive midfielder for Bayern Munich, I would still contend it is a mistake to play him as a right mid for the US.
It's called criticism and discussing the merits of coaches' decisions is in general hardly an outrageous activity on a soccer discussion board. Yes, it doesn't really fit in a game day forum, but this is hardly the first time a game day thread has been used to talk about related things. Again, sorry - as I hoped for Kalm, but got Friesland.
Except you yourself admit it's probably not even accurate criticism. So then it's Willie Horton. If you want to criticize Jurgen's line up go to the USMNT Mex post match thread and tell everyone why Williams R blew the game due his lack of positioning and who you would start in his place. But to jump on one exclusion for a guy who played a lot of games for them last year - and was quite possible sat because he put in USMNT service - as evidence JK is either making huge line-up mistakes or the USMNT talent level is slipping - (conveniently calling Spector "cover" while not mentioning Demps was nowhere to be seen in Azteca) is not "critique" it is sophistic crap. I don't think Jurgen is infallible and Danny at RM might be a huge mistake (although I'm not sure who I put in his place), but the fact that Danny Williams did not get the start in one Bund game is not proof of anything.
No, I do not admit that. My basic opinion was (and will be unless something changes) is that Williams is simply not so good a player that playing him in a position where (IMHO) he lacks the basic attributes that lead to success can be justified UNLESS the USMNT talent level has dropped appreciably (which it may have). No one says it is "proof". It's food for thought, something I think is appropriate for a soccer discussion board, and that KALM's post above takes it in that spirit and provides a logical, well-reasoned viewpoint. I again apologize for misjudging the response I would get from BS on this here (and when I say "here", I mean "you").
Ok, we are both clear then (though you are a bit derivative). I think expressing an opinion on a soccer player and coaching decisions on a soccer board is what the board is for.
I think rebutting those opinions when I think they are glib and based on sophistry is what the board is for! (Albeit a different thread.) So we're all good! Peace out.