I found a book now from Norman Giller & Kevin Keegan called 'Seventies Revisited'. There they asked a number of British footballers, ex-footballers and administrators for their 'greatest' of the decade list and Pelé ended surprisingly high (to their own surprise), and Kempes too. If you want I can make a screencap of those six pages. It has British footballers per position and then an 'overseas star' category. Anyway, here's the actual source of the press MVP in 1980 (the same writer's association also did/does it in the MLS era): https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/137109641/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...layoffs/f9022877-3e80-4338-a65e-4c38b0e443f7/ https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HBczAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WjIHAAAAIBAJ&pg=5402,4980863 Which means he won the main domestic press honors in 1977, 1978, 1979 and 1980. There was something similar for George Best in 1976 (press choice), next to runner-up in the official league stamped call.
Johan Cruyff 1947-2016 https://www.worldofjohancruyff.com/?mc_cid=4728c0f16f&mc_eid=80cfca271d RIP to a true legend of the game...his genius will be missed
A lot of things can be posted but this is what the real King (Willem-Alexander) and head of state said about 'King Johan'. As posted on his Facebook page (within 30 minutes it appears). "Met het overlijden van Johan Cruijff verliest Nederland een unieke en geniale sportman. Hij heeft ons voetbal verrijkt en een nieuw gezicht gegeven. Daarnaast heeft hij zich met hart en ziel ingezet om de sport voor iedereen toegankelijk te maken. Hij was een icoon van Nederland. Johan Cruijff was van ons allemaal. Mijn vrouw en ik leven mee met zijn familie en vrienden op deze verdrietige dag." - WA "With the passing of Johan Cruijff the Netherlands loses an unique and genius sportsman. He has enriched our football and provided a new face. Furthermore he has engaged with his heart and soul to make the sport accessible for everyone. He was an icon of the Netherlands. Johan Cruijff was from us all. My wife and myself commiserate with his family and friends on this sorrowful day." - WA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem-Alexander_of_the_Netherlands
@PDG1978 Maybe you find this interesting to read: http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/5009/Arch...ooft-niet-maar-denkt-wel-dat-er-iets-is.dhtml This is also somewhat related to it: http://www.sport-english.com/en/news/barca/johan-cruyffs-rules-for-both-football-and-life-5003433 (the original source is from 1993) As you maybe remember about 1.5 years ago I translated a few sections from an video interview for you (when he made his daily walk through the city - the program series was called 'the walk' as well). It's now deleted from youtube sadly. I didn't post it here but later I said I still intend to post it once. I think this were the most interesting sections. Maybe you remember - I did it 1.5 years ago. That Laudrup documentary you sent to me (I had seen it years earlier but now it's on YT) has also a number of interesting things/remarks involving JC14.
Yes, good idea to post all of this - I remember reading that yes. His take on religion seems sensible but of course everyone sees things differently and many have strong belief in specified religions. Maybe it would have been interesting for him to expand on the idea of something regulating coincidence. Yes, I thought the Cruyff comments on that documentary would be interesting and didn't know at first you'd have seen it. I still need to find them all and listen myself.
In your guys opinion, does Cryuff have a case as the greatest Europeon footballer of all time? In my opinion he is, but others like listing Zidane, Eusebio, and CR7 above him.
I got this three weeks ago: Not everything of my Dailymotion channel is posted in this thread, but this is from close before the 1978 World Cup of course. The 1978 farewell match and that world xi match is from after the tournament.
Here are the average grades of Ajax players in the season 81/82. The grades are of 'De Telegraaf/Telesport'. I haven't counted the grades of the last 2 matches of Ajax in Eredivisie because for some reason 'De Telegraaf' hasn't published the grades after the last 2 playing days. Maximal grade was 5. And it was very rare - for example Ajax've got only eight '5' in 32 games, and Wim Kieft (the topscorer in that season) got not a single '5' and only four '4'!
@PDG1978 @Arsenij told me he had problems uploading the 1982-83 graph, so here is it. Personally I doubt he was as good as this (but who am I), but in 1983-84 he was excellent of course against a range of teams. Maybe that 1981-1983 period deserves a nice compilation as well. https://www.sundaypost.com/sport/football/the-big-interview-charlie-nicholas/ http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jan-molby-johan-cruyff-greatest-11094551 http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/st-mirren/when-johan-cruyff-came-to-paisley-1-4083277 Anyway, there's that 1982-83 graph and this below would fit in well too.
Interesting, as I had expected probably to see a bit more of a gap in his ratings (in favour of 81/82) despite seeing how well he could play vs Celtic etc within 82/83 too. Maybe the method of measurement is not conventional (it is for those publications, but I mean worldwide perhaps a 1 to 10 scale was always more normal - Kicker is another exception though) but the substantial lead he has in those average ratings would look great for a player in his prime let alone at the end of his career. It's more info to add to the videos we can see and the plaudits etc anyway. Personally my impression is that as a very young player Pele was the best of the top legends (and everybody) at that stage of career; not to deny the talent of Maradona at that age for example though. But at the veteran stage I do think equally it would be Cruyff; although going back to more around the age of 30 it would seem Di Stefano for example was possibly having a greater impact and influence overall (not to judge everything by team success though ofc, and the further back we go the more difficult it is to judge players in general I think). The arguments will always rage about the middle period - say 23 to 27, but probably I still suggest it's a reasonable call to say Pele for the lower end of that and Cruyff for the higher end, with more doubt and more candidates in between probably. Maybe there is an age after 27 when Platini would be a candidate as the best, and maybe on prime form an age before 23 where George Best could be a candidate even. I hesitated to mention them lol, but what can probably be said for I think Messi and also CR7 is that it's not easy to pidgeon hole them into being better at a young-ish age (not very young, despite promise) or an old-ish one, in literal terms or in comparison to established legends. Anyway, yes, maybe Cruyff gets a bit under-appreciated in that phase of his career due to not playing in major latter stage European games and being a bit under the radar in general (plus awards - Ballon d'Or etc - not fitting that well time-wise for recognition though 1982 perhaps did potentially with most or arguably all of his 81/82 season to consider plus the start to 82/83 including games like against Celtic). I think the ratings, while hopefully not shockingly under-valuing Kieft for example (but I did already observe just how well he was being served, largely by Cruyff too), do add to the impression that Cruyff was very much the catalyst and inspiration, and creator, for Ajax in his spell there in the 80's.
Just to let you know but in the book he says indeed that his form dropped in the 2nd half of 1982-83 because of a few problems (his 2nd father died). Although he did have a few goals and assists still incl. the cup final (as found in this thread and a video exists ofc). He says too that during his 2nd Ajax spell he played on every position except goalkeeper and striker. And yes, 1983-84 was a return to international form for him. He mentions that solo goal vs Liverpool too (without naming Liverpool but it's clear he means that moment). He claims as well that he was in 1977 "in the best form of his life". From the national team games he remembers the England match of course but also the qualifier against a strong Belgium team (sadly the tape of the full match hasn't surfaced). This memory matches with the 'France Football' report I found a while ago, which indeed had massive praise. Not very surprising to read this but it's good to have another confirmation. He says it again here (he forgets to mention though that he was only eligible to play in the domestic cup in the 1977-78 season) With some other reports at hand I don't think it's an unfair call necessarily. This is also a nice one from 1969. I mentioned some sentences before but didn't post the full article because of copyright issues. #JohanCruyff 'The #GeorgeBest of Holland' #CBFM 1969-08 pic.twitter.com/Y0LcdOZxFa— Scottish Footy Cards (@ScotsFootyCards) September 11, 2016
This is a new video that has surfaced lately I also belong to the group who thinks he did positively well as a Barcelona player (except for 1974-75 and 1975-76 probably), although at hindsight you might say the founding of La Masia in 1979 was the most significant act. I'll try to collect some old and new ideas later (I've gained a few new ideas/facts in that respect).
The observations below shouldn't be seen in isolation but in relation to the other observations. An observation is in itself not sufficient or convincing. Observation 1 I'll start with the win percentage in the league, as can be found on scoreshelf and bdfutbol. The win percentage when he played - he started in all matches where he played - was 57%. The win percentage when he did not play (31 league matches - ineligible, suspensions) was 29%. The win percentage of FC Barcelona in all league matches between 1973 and 1978 was 51% and surprisingly the highest percentage of all teams in that particular period (also the win + draw percentage was the highest of the 1973 - 1978 period). It is possible to take a broader perspective too - the period 1969 to 1981. This covers the whole decade as well as the three years after him (the club with a new wealthy president attracted Krankl, Simonsen, Roberto Dinamite, Schuster as legit replacement foreign stars, plus some Spanish players thanks to the new wealth). The win percentage in the league was 50% in that period. Subtracting the games where Cruijff himself played, the win percentage was 47% compared to 57% with him in the team (instead of him another legit star played obviously). Finally, in the whole 1960 to 1988 period the win percentage in the league was 51%. Taking out the games where Cruijff played the win percentage was 50%, as opposed to 57%. Some of the stars (still) playing in that period included Kubala, Kocsis, Suarez Miramontes, Evaristo, Seminario, Neeskens, Krankl, Simonsen, Schuster, Roberto Dinamite, Maradona, Hughes and Lineker. As further illustration, the win percentages in the league of the most notable players for this timeframe were (between brackets the win percentage without the player). Kocsis - 67% [53%] Kubala - 65% [56%] Suarez Miramontes - 65% [57%] Cruijff - 57% [29%] Maradona - 55% [53%] Schuster - 55% [50%] Sotil - 53% [53%] Neeskens - 52% [33%] ** Lineker - 51% [50%] Seminario - 50% [59%] Krankl - 48% [46%] Simonsen - 48% [N/A] * Roberto Dinamite - 25% [42%] *) Simonsen missed only 4 league games, the club won 3. **) Neeskens - one of the very few true private friends he had in football - was there from 1974 to 1979, instead of 1973 to 1978. To conclude this in a concise manner (for the league): FC Barcelona win percentage 1960 - 1988 : 50% FC Barcelona win percentage 1969 - 1981 : 47% FC Barcelona win percentage 1973 - 1978 : 29% Win percentage Cruijff 1973 - 1978: : 57% Peculiarly though, the foreigners Laudrup and Stoichkov were after 1988 fairly cheap (and it was necessary because cash position and attendances had quite severely worsened). I'll continue with the (new) thoughts later. That will also place the 29% and 47% figures into context.
Nice work putting this together. I recalled one of your early threads ofc, looking at results with and without players in general and I remember he was notable on that one even among other all-time stars. But this post does put the reliance on him into perspective (to some extent his impact was obvious in 73/74 ofc), and it's interesting to see it for the surrounding period. Also notable is the 'small' win percentage even with him as opposed to what modern Barcelona must register (showing the lack of real team edge as Bada Bing would say). At first glance it looks like the Cruyff/Neeskens situation at Barcelona is like Beckenbauer/Muller for Germany (IIRC of was it Bayern too/instead) with both players registering high percentages with them as opposed to without, but I guess some games both missed and therefore successful games both played in help such stats if the team lost without both (Neeskens must've had his own positive effect, despite early ideas that integrating him meant breaking up the team of 73/74 I suppose, having to take out Sotil etc; but perhaps he would benefit by playing games with Cruyff and then missing games at the same time....but I haven't looked into how it breaks down of course and it'd be even more interesting perhaps if it was minimally to do with that effect).
Yes, you can check Neeskens his game record on bdfutbol. What you hint at relates to the 2nd observation I wanted to make (maybe I wanted to put it later but I'll place it on 2nd now). The last decade of Barcelona and similar superclubs have even placed peak seasons as Ronaldo 1996-97 in the shadows. Not merely Messi but to various levels also Eto'o, Henry (he scored a hattrick when Eto'o was out), Suarez, Neymar, Xavi (20+ assists at his peak) made look seasons like Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Stoichkov pedestrian (even while topscorers in Spain have always scored well compared to England, Italy, France, Germany - since the early 1980s at least). Before it ceased to exist, 'Don Balon' was most probably the most reputable, neutral and best football publication Spain had. Back in March 2007 (published february) the magazine had this as cover: The title reads as: "Cruyff vs Ronaldinho - Who is better? Two periods and two stars. Find out which of them adds more merits as azulgrana [Barcelona player]" It was an article of 6 pages. Of course they mention some pros and cons, differences in era, that Ronaldinho had a significant amount of penalties and free kicks while Cruijff had only two penalties etc, Ronaldinho won Champions League. I don't cite this to argue that peak Ronaldinho was a better or worse player (one might argue they overlook Laudrup and others during the run of the publication, up until that point in time), but that individually speaking it was seen as a success and he was playing well enough. I think they were at least consistent with this. In 1999 they voted for the players of the century: It also matches with how they rated him at the time (compared to other and later stars, click link). They didn't cover the first two seasons (1973-1975) but he was rated two times as the leagues top player and three times in the team of the season. For that time it was consistent. http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/la-liga-rankings-1975-93.1813986/ For the most part he was rated as 'better' than other top players. At one point it had four tournament MVPs playing in the league (Netzer, Cruijff, Kempes, Caszely). Mundo Deportivo, Don Balon and Marca at least agree he was the best player in 1973-74, 1976-77 and 1977-78 - with the other seasons more questionable and with different views and takes. Opposing defenders had different views too (link) about whether Lineker or Maradona were harder or easier to mark or take out of a match. So yeah, what 'Don Balon' thought throughout the years (broadly sketched) was a new idea I gained. At least he was rated highly by the most reputable magazine of the lot. And yes, we shouldn't follow that blindly so therefore I've also gained some other thoughts (I wouldn't conclusively say he was better than Eto'o 30 years later - and he himself didn't seem to like it much as he says in the book and here; I just think he did very well unlike what a dozen guys on twitter think)
Yes, here some final ideas as conclusion; that I've partially stated previously (and therefore say in brief). That Aston Villa match of above was without Neeskens by the way. They improved from 41 goals to 75 goals in the season he arrived. If you look at the ClubElo website (not perfect but it gives an idea) you see that they were at an all-time low in the phase before he joined and then they reached a new low - that they've never seen since - shortly after he left. Which adds to the idea of being instrumental and reliance on a player, even more so since new chairman Nunez brought no shortage of funds in 1979 (he even publicly offered 3 million dollars a year for a contract extension but Cruijff declined the offer). The win percentage thing looks especially good when one considers that he had not only 60 goals in 180 games (2 penalties) but also 14 penalties won for others and at the very least 86 assists (so 100 assists in total you might say). So next to some 'influence' there was also a bit of an end product as a result of assuming roles (sometimes such role was also on the defensive and controlling end of the spectrum). Finishing first in the league and then three 2nd places and one 3rd place was - by a distance - the best and most consistent run they had between 1960 and his return in 1988 (they had also the highest win% and win+draw% of all teams in this period as I said above). E.g. after 1977-78 they ended 5th, 4th and 5th. Same for three semi finals and one quarter final in Europe, it was not bettered between 1960 and 1988 (even more so when the league record is added on top; battling on multiple fronts). Possibly he could've done better in some games, but he had at least an assist or goal in each of the ties the club lost (Leeds, Liverpool, Bilbao, PSV). In 1973-74 he was ineligible to play and they got out in the UEFA Cup first round. For the 1960s to early 1990s era this is a pretty consistent record anyway, I think. Finally, they won the Copa del Rey in the only season he could play. In the other seasons (with no foreigners allowed) they reached two quarter finals, a round of 48 and a final where they got beaten with 4-0 by Real Madrid (just a few months after the 0-5 in Bernabeu). So the comparative quality of the domestic players at FC Barcelona vis-a-vis other clubs is a legitimate question, which has also an effect on the space, goals and assists of course and the need to do a little bit of dirty and invisible work. The club had also 0 players in the Don Balon list in the immediate season after his departure (1978-79), they returned to these heights at the late 1980s. So yeah, in short that would be my idea. Win percentage, Don Balon rating, ClubElo ("all time low"), solid number of goals and assists, league record, European record (scoring or assisting while losing), track record of the club in the Copa del Rey. Maybe they came one world class player short? (cf. other 1970s and 1980s club teams)
As for percentage of Cruyff's teams with and without him. Nota bene: When the full match was played with (or without) him then it's not a problem. All clear. But if he played in some match only one (say the first) half. And the first half his team won 1-0, and the second hald without him was lost 0-1, the I counted it as 2 matches - one (45 minutes, 1 win, 1-0, 2 points) with him and the other (45 minutes, 1 lose, 0-1, 0 points) without him. The goal per game for his team and against it was counted per 90 minutes. Ajax 64-73 With him 319 +251=35-33 84,2% points; goals 897 (3,24) - 234 (0,84) +/- +663 (2,39) Without 110 +51=29-30 59,5% points; goals 165 (2,22) - 90 (1,21) +/- +75 (1,01) Barca 73-78 With him 180 +101=38-41 66,7% points; goals 363 (2,07) - 170 (0,97) +/- +193 (1,10) Without 70 +20=31 -19 50,7% points; goals 73 (1,24) - 62 (1,05) +/- +11 (0,19) Aztecs 79 With him 27 +14=4-9 59,3% points; goals 59 (2,13) - 44 (1,59) +/- +15 (0,54) Without 10 +7 = 1-2 75,0% points; goals 12 (1,53) - 9 (1,14) +/- +3 (0,38) Diplomats 80-81 With him 32 +19=6-7 68,8% points; goals 73 (2,48) - 40 (1,36) +/- +33 (1,12) Without 43 +12=7-24 36,0% points; goals 56 (1,38) - 75 (1,85) +/- -19 (-0,47) Levante With him 12 +2 =4-6 33,3% points; goals 8 (0,74) - 16 (1,48) +/- -8 (-0,74) Without 35 +16=7-12 55,7% points; goals 36 (1,09) - 29 (0,87) +/- +7 (0,21) Ajax 81-83 With him 46 +33=11-2 83,7% points; goals 137 (3,15) - 53 (1,22) +/- +84 (1,93) Without 45 +29=6-10 71,1% points; goals 113 (2,91) - 51 (1,31) +/- +62 (1,60) Feyenoord With him 44 +34=7-3 85,2% points; goals 114 (2,77) - 36 (0,88) +/- +78 (1,90) Without 12 + 5 =5-2 62,5% points; goals 11 (2,10) - 7 (1,33) +/- +4 (0,76) National Tean 66-77 With him 48 +30=10-8 72,9% points; goals 121 (2,52) - 39 (0,81) +/- +82 (1,71) Without 35 +14 =8-13 51,4% points; goals 42 (1,25) - 35 (1,04) +/- + 7 (0,21)
For this moment I've got for Cruijff 727 official matches (including 9 matches for Ajax-2, one match for Ajax-3 and seven for National youth team (for 16-18 years old) and NOT including the 2 matches for European Supercup 1972 'cos UEFA still hasn't recognized them - I counted the 2 matches as unofficial). But I'm absolutely sure that that's not complete info. I think he played more then 9 official matches for Ajax-2 and there were more official matches for amateur Ajax-teams. For example Jany van der Veen in 1978 said that Cruijff played his first adult offcial match when he was 14. That was match for Ajax-6. That was won 5-0 in he scored all 5 goals. I haven't found that match. So I did not count it. So this info is still not complete.
So that's what I've got for NOW: 727 matches (5 as sub), 63075 minutes (86,8 per match), 419 goals (7 of them were penalties, at least 54 - headers, 5 - free-kicks), at least 348 assists, at least 56 caused penalties, at least 52 yellow cards (I'm sure at least 90% of them were for protests or for talking), 5 red cards, at least 40 cancelled goals, 205 times he was captain (I mean from the match start). Those 727 matches (not the intervals he played in, but the whole matches) were +500 (beautiful number, isn't it?) =107 -120, goals 1882-700.
In those matches he wore: #9 - 411 times, #14 - 217, #10 - 74, #8 - 17, #11 - 5, #7 - 2, #12 - 2, #6 - 1. I think the real figures may be a little different, but mainly the are more or less correct
Friendly and unofficial matches have many more questions: I've got for NOW 256 (I think there were many more of them in reality) - 5 of them as sub, 18763 minutes (73,3 per match), 169 goals (3 penalties, at least 7 headers, 3 free-kicks), at least 90 assists, at least 10 caused penalties, at least 5 yellows cards, 2 red cards, at least 1 cancelled goal, 60 as captain; +174 =40 -42, goals 1018-329