This is a longish read on possession and 4-4-2 tactics where I'm sure many people here will find something of interest, and also something of relevance to what Klinsmann is trying to do with some of his player selection and usage. And also how he's not going all the way to pure possession, and working with a hybrid system while taking our players into account. I found this posted in the BS thread for Liverpool's new all-out tiki-taka manager, Brendan Rodgers. http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/rodgers-barca-and-tiki-taka
This is really good. Does this change anyone's ideas of how we would want to set up personnel? I haven't read a take on 7 zone before. Its interesting and a bit difficult for me to translate that into who is in what zone when to determine who has what role. If that makes any sense.... Its still about roles. I wonder if there is a different lable of roles designed from the 7 zone perspective instead of the numbering system that is more commonly used now. (6 as dmid, 8 as linking player, etc)
Thanks for linking that. I was curious how many goals teams score off corners. So there's some EPL info...I wonder if it's similar for La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A? I always figured the info was out there somewhere, but damned if I know where to find it. Is there a site that tends to have stats like that, or does it still tend to come out here and there in articles such as this?
I'm a big fan of "total football" which started with Holland in the 70s. To me, this is just an evolution of this concept. I love teams such as Arsenal, Barca, and AC Milan who are patient in their build up and mentally wear down an opponent. The biggest challenge is having the players to play this system. As far as applying to the US, we don't have the players to play this system. You need CB and goalie who are comfortable with the ball at their feet and start the distribution. You need players who move off the ball and have good ball skills (which is why some of us are high on Torres). We can and do play the high pressure, but not against top teams. Nice article and it will be interesting to see LiverPool evolve (remember Mark Pelosi is in their system)...
Can't be overstated. Barcelona is who they are because of their movement off the ball (making themselves available for a pass to the man in possession), and the ability of everyone in the side to be able to control the ball and get off an accurate pass with one or two touches. You don't have to be fast if you can pass the ball well. A passed ball will always move faster than a player can.
Yeah, odd to read after seeing the US concede one goal and hit two crossbars off of corners in three games. I'd call those goal scoring opportunities.
Klinsmann knows we dont have the skill or brains too play tiki taka WITH EFFICACY right now .........Sure we can knock it around forever against most concacaf teams. But it would be what he calls possession without purpose. Even our skill guys are not ideally suited. Dempsey finishes but often holds the ball too long when involved in pure build up. Donovan has the brains to do it but those surrounding him on the right side recently dont play that way for club so, it doesn't happen. Bradley and Torres actually are the two guys who can best play tiki taka if asked to. I think Klinsmann knows this. But I have come to the conclusion that he is STILL experimenting. ( Hence, Bradley being tried as a pure 6, Torres being tried as a wide left forward--neither of which is ideal for their respective game) So either JK is not worrried about early qualifying or he is trying to force them as round pegs into a square whole because he thinks other options are worse. I'm not sure which is correct. If you really want tiki taka on the USMNT you do this, .........eventually: Johnson Altidore/Boyd ( one of them) Dempsey/Donovan (one or them not both) Torres/HoldenDiskerud(one or them) Bradley (Beckerman/destroyer who eventually eclipses him, such as Morales) LB one of Ream/ Cameron and then a right center back and a RB (Maybe williams or Lichaj) We would be very , very lucky to be able to have all the above guys in form and healthy in by this time 2013. Then JK would have one year to have them really master tiki taka. But the odds are very long that we- can tiki taka (well) with the big boys until the next cycle. It thus makes sense that Klinsmann understands we will have to go over the top sometimes , at least in the near term.
Good read, and can definitely see some of what JK is doing in here. Biggest problem is... "Zone 3: The 'volante de salida' This player must be particularly good at playing his way out of trouble and yet still excellent at winning the ball back. Typical characteristics are the ability to read the game, act as an outlet for under-pressure teammates consistently and continually pass the ball under pressure:" This is NOT Maurice Edu, yet he seems to have 1st shot at this role. Other than the "winning the ball back" he possesses none of these qualities. Micheal Bradley I'm not sure has enough of the Ball Winner in him or playing out of trouble. He does act as good outlet and read the game well. Beckerman is too slow to pass under pressure or to play his way out of it. But these are the guys JK has put here. The closest fit I think is Jermaine Jones (or perhaps Williams/Morales/someone else not on this roster), but for some reason JK doesn't try him there, so we haven't seen this come to fruition yet. I think he has the escapabilty, ball winning, game reading, and outlet instincts to succeed here. The one I'm not sold on is passing under pressure but he checks the most boxes. I might try Torres next to see if he has enough defender in him if Jones didn't succeed. All the other zones I think we have clear favorites (spots where the personnel is stonger and weaker obviously), but we have to get Zone 3 right. If "Zone 3 has arguably the most important role to play in keeping possession," you cannot play a guy there who cannot control the ball.
To add something constructive, I don't think such a totalitarian system is able to be implemented at the international level. The constraints, such as revolving players who play most of the their time in diverse domestic systems and the lack of training time, make it impossible it seems to me (Notwithstanding the situations of many players being on the same club or playing the same system domestically).
Is Torres really ideal for Tiki-Taka? He is good at hitting the medium-range forward passes. But is he ideal for Tiki-Taka? Maybe more than our other mids but I don't know if he has the overall makeup you want for that style. There was an article a month or two ago talking about how because Torres plays in the Mexican league he is not used to dealing with high pressure on the midfielders b/c many games are played at elevation. If you're not used to dealing with high pressure then I don't know if you are ideal for tiki-taka as a CM. Maybe Torres is best out on the wing where he has more time and space to receive the ball and turn and face before being hit by pressure.
One problem with this article is the effectiveness of pressuring a team high up the field is heavily dependent on their ball and passing skills, and your defense and speed. If the other team is good enough on the ball, when you pressure them you do them a favor by giving them more space to create in. That is why retreating deep remains the most effective strategy against a superior opponent.
Yes, you are correct. I didn't mean to imply that he is ideal for possession style. However, I think that he could fit into the system as Xavi role (no he is not Xavi). Also, he gets caught with high pressure because the other US players movement off the ball leaves much to be desired...
Their center backs were: Ashley Williams: Joined Swansea from League Two Stockport County in 2008 when Swansea was in League One Steven Caulker: 20 year old on loan from Spurs who previously played for Yeovil and Bristol City on loan. Probably an emergency when Alan Tate (who joined Swansea back in 2002) broke his leg. Garry Monk: Joined Swansea back when they were in League Two in 2004. Caulker is a kid and the other two are English Football journeyman (Welsh in Williams' case) that were in the Swansea side long before Rodgers got there. None of these guys are any better suited to play out of the back than guys like Parkhurst, Bocanegra, Onyewu, Omar Gonzalez or Geoff Cameron.
And maybe that's why Klinsmann has been playing Bradley in that position recently. The problem with our mids in that scheme though is that Torres is also a deep orchestrator, not really a box to box guy, and Jones isn't really a possession oriented, short pass guy. When Jones and Bradley are both higher up, Jones seems to be almost competing with Bradley, and bypassing him quite a bit, trying to be dynamic. So between our uncomfortable on the ball CBs and our not fitting quite right midfield, we are a long way from our personnel fitting the pure tiki taka scheme. It still seems like that 7 zone system is something JK is trying to work with somehow though, and we do manage more possession than we used to.
The article referenced focused mainly on the offensive end of things. I think the issues with how Klinsmann is trying to get us to play are as much defensive as offensive. Both sides of the coin need to be analyzed together. It has been pointed out by some astute posters in a couple other threads that Edu as a 6 might work defensively, but that with our current group of centerbacks you need a 6 who can also offset their deficiencies when it comes to buildup play. Conversely, someone like Bradley or Torres as the 6 can help with those deficiencies but doesn't cover their defensive weakness. How to solve this conundrum with personnel at hand? My favored solution is to use both Bradley and Torres as deep-lying center mids. Together they give us enough shielding for the backline. Certainly they offset the centerbacks deficiencies when it comes to building an attack out of the back. Bradley in this setup is asked to curtail but not completely give up the runs forward. He has to be more judicious about when he does it. The second part of the solution, but one whose implementation can come more gradually, is the move away from Bocanegra/Goodson/Gooch toward Cameron/Ream/(and maybe a converted mid such as Jones or Edu). I am under no illusions that this will strenthen us defensively. I think the second group of centerbacks will still need shielding. But they do have the potential to contribute much more to the buildup play. Ironically, moving to more skillful centerbacks will re-open the possibility of going with a more offensively limited but robust 6 such as Edu, with the knock-on effect that the 8 is then free to move into the attacking zone more frequently.
I wouldn't call it a totalitarian system, but I agree that it's extremely hard to be done at international level. Spain using high numbers of Barca players allows them to play a similar short passing game, but it's not the same system Barca uses most of the time. It also helps to have 30-40 avaialable players that are excellent on the ball under pressure.
Swansea has their pick of anyone they can afford who has an EU or Commonwealth passport. This means that they don't have the overall quality of the US pool, but they have far more flexibility to find good (not great) players who fit the system they want to play.
And since they couldn't afford anyone not available on a free transfer for low wages, the pool was significantly smaller than ours (not sure what staying up will bring this year). Other than the loanee, it's the same guys on defense as before Rodgers was even there. They didn't pick players to fit the system, they taught the system to the guys they had.