Jesse Marsch out at Leeds, rumored for Southampton job

I hope this puts to bed the notion that rigid systems like Jesse's RB GegenScheiße can work long term. Football is a fluid game, and there are many gimmicks that arise. I think gegenpressing is a passing fad, but even if not, it should be only part of the way a team plays, and not a rigid system unto its own.

 

I don't think it is. I think pressing is a fundamental shift in play that was enabled by better fitness standards. It's like pretending that the blitz was a passing fad in the NFL -- applying pressure to the ball and being aggressive on defense is always going to be a possible choice.

But that said, there's a million and one ways to apply pressure and press. And it's already evolved a ton.

 

Japan impressed me at the World Cup. I remember the one sequence where they started to really pressure Spain in the second half. Spain couldn’t handle japan’s frontal assault.

But I just don’t think we have all the pieces to implement that style for our National team…

 

It really sucked for Leeds that the club was/is just not Big Time that Haaland would have even considered for a nanosecond to come to Leeds, given his/his father's links to Leeds.

 

Pope on Marsch via Sky. "lots of attacking options but defensively exposed".

 

Is anyone else tired of hearing that Jesse Marsch had to live under the shadow of Bielsa? Maybe for a couple of months, but after that, baloney! Marsch is no longer with Leeds because his team got 18 points in 20 games. Bielsa had absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

I think pressing has become something you do at times to catch teams off guard and blitzing in the NFL is a good comparison. So if a team blitzes every play other teams can scheme against it and if a team presses all of the time the same thing happens. I will add the when Klopp has the right players of the right age his system adds incredible offensive schemes that Marsch could only dream of. I mean if you're going to get the ball in ideal spots figure out what to do instead of wing it.

 

Yep, it's always an evolution back and forth. Blitzing and intense passing rushing (and Lawrence Taylor) gave rise to the West Coast offense and the three step drop. Detailed protection packages and the West Coast gave rise to the Zone Blitz, where the blitz can come from anywhere, but almost random players drop back into passing lanes and others blitz. The league shifted to mobile quarterbacks and the RPO to stop that in many cases. Then that got killed a bit, etc.

Soccer is going to be the same way. Pressing isn't going to go away but it will evolve and shift and and change.

 

Barcelona was doing pressing long before Dortmund and Liverpool. It's nothing new. What I would say is if you do the same thing in the same way every game, eventually your opponents develop something to counter your system and beat it. It doesn't matter what your system is, eventually it will get figured out, countered, and defeated.

I think in the end, success in football/soccer depends on having skilled players who follow defensive and offensive principles, and who express themselves creatively to solve problems in the three areas of the field. That and having a kick-a__ goalkeeper (Matt Turner) who keeps clean sheets.

 

Watching the English media right now, they sure feel like Liverpool's veterans are just worn the eff out. Particularly the midfield, which they haven't particularly bolstered with new signings.

You see the same arguments about Bielsa's system. It just wears guys down. His Leeds teams were getting absolutely demolished at the end. Jesse's teams weren't losing 6-0 or 7-0. They were losing 1-0 and drawing too many games that they should have won. They just weren't quite good enough at the level. That's not only Jesse's fault, but he's the one that's easiest to get rid of. Easy scapegoat.

 

Agree.

The very best teams, I think, find the balance between a system and framework that creates organization and cohesion that puts players in advantaged positions to make decisions that can be varied and creative.

I think people tend to think of creativity as one player just doing what they want, but I don't think that works particularly well. It's a team sport, and what you need is a way for the group, on the fly, to collectively solve problems and work together.

Basketball is by far a more individual sport, but it is really easy to see there. You run certain patterns of play -- a pick and roll, the horns play -- and the good teams see how the defense reacts and then as a team reacts to it. The star players are still very creative, still able to make choices.

But the role players are executing smart actions as well -- and, this is the key -- the star players understand what the role players are going to do and how the defense is going to react. Holes open up in the defense as their teammates set screens or make cuts, and they exploit it.

In some ways, it's very structured. But if you get mechanical about it, you can be beat. So you need some freedom for the players to read what is happening and adjust. But if the players aren't on the same page at all -- if Matthew Hoppe is just fancy dribbling over here -- it looks good but no one has any idea how to help.

Jordan with the triangle was the perfect example. The triangle, when described, comes off as very restricting and mechanical. But Jordan didn't find it that way. To him, it was reliable. He knew he had an option here and there. He knew the defense would need to respect certain passes and movements that he and teammates would make. That would create opening for him to exploit.

One of the reasons I love soccer is that is takes this concept to the extreme. Where American football is scripted to the millimeter, and basketball is less so but there's still very detailed plays, soccer has the decision making on the field. The players have to collectively read and react to what is in front on them.

I think a lot of people put down creativity to Gio Reyna dribbling four guys and hitting a banger. Far more common creativity is Gio Reyna recognizing that Tim Weah is about to make a run into the box, and when the fullback covers, he knows that Sergino Dest is filling the space behind, so he passes to a wide open Dest who crosses it to the back post where Pulisic has seen all this coming and made a run to knock it in.

What was Leo Messi's most memorable play at the World Cup? It was that insane diagonal pass to someone out of his vision. It's not a play he makes alone -- the other player needs to read it like him and make that run, and he needs to know it is happening.

This is harder to accomplish in a National Team, but plenty do.

 

Liverpool got old. That's all. I don't know that playing that style aged them prematurely. Henderson and Milner got old; Wijnaldum got old and left.

Klopp's adjusted some, but teams have a prime and Liverpool just rode the horses a bit too long.

 

I've noticed some comments regarding Jesse recently and I wanted to find a way to work it into a post and I think this article is a good starting spot:

https://www.thesquareball.net/leeds-united/nein-zu-red-bull/

Basically, I found it incredibly interesting how despite to us it may seem at times to be "They hate him because he is American" thing, in reality it doesn't seem like that at all (not that it needed to be said tbh, but its interesting to see the discourse form).

What I see in that article and when listening to podcasts is that Jesse is associated A LOT more with the Red Bull Company than he is with being American. How he would call himself a company man, extol Red Bull virtues, how he would use German terminology for things as taught by Red Bull.

And while I can appreciate him for being someone who can go all in on an ideology, I think it's clear evidence how much of an ideologue he can be and just how unwilling he is to change his tactics are belief. Personally, he seems incredibly dogmatic to an unworkable extent.

 

In the end, I think that's probably a bit harsh. But I also think that Leipzig evolved for a reason, NY has changed some for a reason. Anything too far doesn't really work, or if it does, it probably relies on a very specific set of personnel.

 

Shrug. People call coaches "ideologes" and tactically rigid/inflexible when they're not winning. Bielsa when he was losing with Leeds. People call coaches geniuses when they stick to their tactical plan and they're winning. Bielsa in his first Premier League season.

The Leeds United Board hired Jesse BECAUSE of this tactical/strategic philosophy. And maybe, just maybe, given more time and opportunity...........he would have turned a corner with it. Tweaked it to ensure more success. But Premier League clubs in Leeds' position don't have the luxury of patience.

 

This is all mostly true. But if it is failing, you've got to learn to adapt.

 

All going according to plan so far.

Leeds wining this game against ManU will be very "Leedsy."

 

The soccer gods hate Jesse.

 

He had plenty of games where he scored first and his stubbornness to not adjust would expose his defense and he would give up the lead.

It's still mostly his fault imo.

 

Maybe, but it sure seems like neither of those goals happens and MU gets that breakaway that got beyond Meslier if Jesse's luck is around.

Have Leeds had a lead since Worber joined?

Edit -- watchin Koch ball watch, maybe it's Leeds.

 

Leeds is playing like they’re happy he’s gone.

 

Jesse tactically can’t protect a lead.

 

True, and honestly the bigger issue was really that he either 1) didn't think he needed to or 2) actually thought "just press harder" was a good way to protect leads in this league