Jaime Moreno

Discussion in 'D.C. United' started by Hedbal, Apr 16, 2006.

  1. Hedbal

    Hedbal Member+

    Jul 31, 2000
    DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At the risk of unleashing torrents of Big Soccer loathing, I think I see the beginning of a "Moreno Situation" much like the "Etcheverry Situation" of a few years ago. Novak starts Jaime and keeps him on the field regardless of his fitness or performance. Last night he played poorly, IMHO, and was so obviously gassed in the second half that Tom Soehn was screaming at him to move his ass - but he couldn't. And Novak still would not send in a sub. This reminds me of Etch's last year, when he had really slowed down but insisted on staying out there and Hudson not only let him do it, he actually said something like "as Etch goes, so goes DC United." Well, Etch went downhill and so did DC United. If Novak doesn't start spelling Moreno from time to time we are going to be hard pressed to generate threats, especially in the second half.
     
  2. roadkit

    roadkit Greetings from the Fringe of Obscurity

    Jul 2, 2003
    Fornax Cluster
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I posted last week that I thought Moreno was cruising (e.g., giving up too easy etc.) and was soundly derided for suggesting it in light of his brace and being named MLS POTW....

    To be fair, I thought he looked much better last night - or at least it wasn't as obvious to me.

    Regardless, you should put on a helmet and brace for incoming rounds! :D
     
  3. jackrock

    jackrock Member

    Aug 19, 2003
    Talcott. WV
    Club:
    DC United
    I am not the biggest moreno fan ever, but......

    I like me some Jaime. What is the quote that a striker can be mediocre for 89 minutes, then come through when needed? in the clutch? To me thats Jaime from toes to hair. Yeah, some times me makes bad dceisions, mistakes. And personnaly I do not think he has the pace or that hard of a shot, but what do we look for from strikers? to put the ball in the net. He excels at this. If Esky/Adu/Filemeno/ etc did this as well as jaime then yeah. There is a difference, again imho, be tween him and etch during his last year. etch's last year the only goals he got were from PK's that he took. Jaime seems to still be a) scoring goals, and run of play goals at that b) setting up teammates , and c) forcing other teams to cover him, to maybe even put 2 or 3 guys on him in the box, freeing up team mates. Jaime is not going to play for another 10 years, but I think to call it a "Jaime situation" is pretty ungrateful.

    thats as derideing as I get :)
     
  4. kimom816

    kimom816 New Member

    Apr 24, 2005
    Boston
    Exactly.
    Vs. Chivas, I was upset that he didn't run much, but he scored twice at last.
    Plus, he has awesome touches that make him so valuable.
    Nice touches and short passing make DC to have more ball possesion in the middle. He is a very smart player, and probably everybody would agree w/ that.

    I really wouldn't mind seeing Jamil's speed though.
    I think that's what we need for last 15 to 20 minutes.
     
  5. GrillMaster

    GrillMaster Member

    Aug 31, 2000
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Un.

    Effing.

    Believable!

    I've read on this board today that Adu had a terrible game and that Jaime was cruising. What a bunch of ungrateful fans. Our team posted a very professional win last night and it seems all some can do is b!tch and nitpick.

    The players who read this board could rightfully be pissed at us. I guess if we had Ronaldinho you folks would find something wrong with his game.

    I shudder to think what will be posted when we drop a game. You guys should remember that regular season games mean virtually nothing in this joke playoff format that we must live with.

    I am usually one of the first to jump on the players when I see them dogging it, but I don't think that has been the case at all this year.

    GM
     
  6. GoDC

    GoDC Member

    Nov 23, 1999
    Hamilton, VA
    Rules of the DC Board. You are not allowed to criticize a player that has performed well in the past. Jaime may look like he is loafing but he is not becasue he has been a great player in the past. I am just happy that he does not insist on taking every throw in and free kick. If we get to that point then you might want to worry but you still cannot criticize him. Now as for young players, feel free to criticize them no matter what the circumstances.
     
  7. roadkit

    roadkit Greetings from the Fringe of Obscurity

    Jul 2, 2003
    Fornax Cluster
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ahem. Note previous post about incoming rounds.

    I'm sick of fans who feel there is no room to criticize players. I'm sure you thought 2000-2003 were great seasons too. In case you forgot, this team collapsed at the end of last season.

    I'm all for starting the new season with a clean slate, but you can be a grateful fan without being a boot-licking sycophant.

    Oh, and for the record, I said I thought Moreno was cruising last week. You can chat with Tommy Soehn about his performance this week. I'm sure you are much more clued into the team's overall performance than he is. :rolleyes:
     
  8. Th4119

    Th4119 Member

    Jul 26, 2001
    Annandale, VA
    I can't comment on Moreno's performance last night because I didn't see the game, but with a 2-0 lead and a forward who scored twice in the last 15 minutes last week, is there any harm in a coach leaving a player out there to build his fitness level more?

    Last night was probably the warmest game the team has played, and it's still only week 3 in the season. Leaving Moreno in there certainly couldn't have handicapped the team that much, and it probably made him stronger for weeks to come.
     
  9. rugman

    rugman Member

    Oct 13, 2003
    Annapolis
    I certainly hope that Hedbal is wrong and we are not seeing the beginning of a "Moreno" situation but I will certainly agree that we can sub Moreno when the situation allows to help keep him fresher over the course of the season. Like last night when we went up by the second goal with 20 minutes left. When we go up by two we don't need Jaime to score another (although we wouldn't mind) or to help kill off the game. Freddy is progressing well here and Esky, Gomez, Benny and Jamil know what to do.
    I actually thought Jaime had a better overall game than the last outing even though he didn't have any single shining moments. While I did not notice Jaime gassed in the second half yesterday, if Tommy Soehn (many happy returns, by the way) is yelling at him to get going and we are up by two, why the hell didn't they sub him out? Because Tino wasn't available? Because Peter wouldn't have liked the players in their respective positions against the Dynamo lineup at that time? Because Peter has a captains are never subbed out rule? I just don't get it. I don't think Jaime has a "minutes played" clause in his contract for a bonus. Just seems like common sense to give our MVP a break over the long run of the season.
     
  10. Hedbal

    Hedbal Member+

    Jul 31, 2000
    DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Your explanation might just make sense. It is the only reason I can think of for leaving him out there, although I would think that practice sessions are where you should work on fitness because it can be done without penalty. (That is, it's not going to cost you a match.) Jaime was so tired that he was losing his usual great touch on the ball, and that can be costly.

    I still think it was a perfect opportunity for 20 minutes or so of Jamil. He and Alecko (and Freddy) would have romped against a Dynamo squad that was desperately throwing numbers forward.
     
  11. Th4119

    Th4119 Member

    Jul 26, 2001
    Annandale, VA
    Like I said, I didn't see the game so I can't comment on Moreno's play (his touch, effort, etc.), but I do know that practice fitness and game fitness are completely different. Judging from the highlights, it looked like DC still had a good number of chances late in the game. Also, as much as I like Jamil Walker, both he and Eskandarian are pure strikers, front runners up top.

    Maybe Nowak kept Moreno out there not only for fitness but to be more of a link to Alecko as well as hold posession a little more with the lead.
     
  12. rugman

    rugman Member

    Oct 13, 2003
    Annapolis
    Leave it to Todd to beat me to a post and come up with a great counter argument. I am not concerned with Jaime being stronger in the upcoming weeks. I am concerned about Jaime being strong in September, October and November.
     
  13. Talion

    Talion New Member

    May 24, 2004
    VA
    Yeah, well, I haven't looked at the highlights, but from my recollection it was Alecko and Freddy producing those chances with speed and aggression. I'm not saying bench Moreno (although I do want Esky starting instead of Filomeno) but I think you are mistaken when you call Jamil a "pure striker". I think people see his rather spotty technique and imagine that it must mean he is a shoot first striker, but he had just 2 goals last year...and 7 assists. That's as many assists as Moreno had in far more minutes and more than anyone else besides Gomez.

    In this game, Gomez was still in the game and could provide the linking play you're mentioning. And even when Gomez has already been subbed off, Adu moves to take his place, and he's not so bad himself. To me, seeing a Walker for Moreno sub at 70-80 minutes is a nightmare for a team that is pushing guys forward, like Hedbal said. Esky and Adu have both improved their defense since last year so we can leave Walker high to draw people off on the counters. Leave Moreno on the field if we need a goal and have to break down a bunker.
     
  14. griffin1108

    griffin1108 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 5, 2003
    Virginia
    You're right. I called Esky the "anti-Filomeno" and you succintly explained the differences between Moreno/Filomeno and Esky/Walker. Once Filomeno came out for Esky, Nowak needed a "possession" forward, especially with, at the time, a one goal lead.

    Sometimes Moreno may be cruising, but he's on the far side of 30 and never was an Esky/Walker/Adu type forward. He picks his runs, is very sophisticated and at the end of the game is the type of intelligent, experienced player you want on the pitch to ice a game.

    This is a long season, DCU has played 3 games. Moreno has 2 goals. Not time for the boneyard yet.
     
  15. According to Goff Jaime had a role in the first goal (also he was the open player in the box who received the pass from Gros before the ref stopped play for the free kick).

    Apart from the first goal I thought Moreno had a decent game last night, he held the ball well under pressure and made some dangerous runs.
     
  16. Sundevil9

    Sundevil9 New Member

    Nov 23, 1999
    Reston, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the team has two flavors in the attacking corps.

    1. The possesion guys. These guys do a lot of dirty work in recieving the ball in traffic and giving it back to the midfield. Filomeno and Jamie are in this group.

    2. The 'Balls our hustle guys'. These guys will chase down any thing and have two modes: attack, and pursuit. Walker and Eski.


    The team needs both types of forward in order to be sucessful. Otherwise teams will figure out what's going on in a hurry and shut it down. See the end of last season if you need an example.

    I don't see a lot of folks appreciating the job that Jamie and Filomeno do in dealing with double and triple teaming. These guys get hacked at and generally come up with the right play. They help create the space for the faster players. If we don't have them slugging it out, then Gomez and Adu can't find the other players.

    Do they give the ball up? Absolutely. Forwards do that. But they also make some good decisions to keep defenders honest, it's a 90 minute game and the strategy is to score more than the other time over the 90 minute span, not just every foray up the field.

    And the 'Etcheverry Situation' came about because the team had become so dependant on El Diablo's magic. Any scoring MUST come through Etcheverry. The team is no longer built around a single weapon, the responsibility is spread through any of 4 different players on the field.
     
  17. jackrock

    jackrock Member

    Aug 19, 2003
    Talcott. WV
    Club:
    DC United
    respectfully, that seems a little messed up. This dude had a good '04 season, a grreat '05 season, and has had a great start to this season. Do you really think he is "loafing"? What he is NOT is a distraction to the team, he IS a great leader, what do you want? Mentioning this "loafing" and adu's "lack of finishing" and filemenos "lack of anything" all seem counter productive. After all, are we not United fans? why harp on trivial things, so far our boys are ALL contributing, and very well at that.
     
  18. Hedbal

    Hedbal Member+

    Jul 31, 2000
    DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree that Moreno and Filomeno are different kinds of forwards than Esky and perhaps Walker (Talion is correct about Walker's 7 assists). While I still think Moreno should have been subbed out for Walker in the second half, I agree that you probably don't want two "striker"-type forwards in the game at the same time at the expense of "holding" types. But Novak started the match with two "holding" forwards - Moreno and Filomeno. Why not balance a Moreno with, say, an Eskandarian, for a more dangerous combination?
     
  19. Talion

    Talion New Member

    May 24, 2004
    VA
    I think Nowak was expecting Houston to bunker up, and to a certain extent they did for the first half. As much as I like Eskandarian, he's not our best guy with a crowd around him. Maybe the right way to look at the situation is this (note: generalizations only, I know Jaime scored on a counter against Chivas for example):

    Attacking players good at breaking down bunkers and working in crowded situations: Moreno, Gomez, Filomeno, Quaranta

    Attacking players good at running into and otherwise using space and leading counters: Adu, Eskandarian, Walker, Gomez

    I expect RBNY to play pretty aggressively at home, so I'd like to see Adu and Eskadanrian out there (with Jaime and Christian of course) and have Walker come in during the second half. The wildcard is if Nowak wants to play conservatively on the road he may not want Adu in the midfield (although Adu's defense was as good as I've ever seen it on Saturday). If Simms is healthy we might see him on the wing instead.
     
  20. roadkit

    roadkit Greetings from the Fringe of Obscurity

    Jul 2, 2003
    Fornax Cluster
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The only thing in this thread that means anything is that Tom Soehn was yelling at Jaime to "move his ass."

    I mean, doesn't anyone find this interesting? It's the third game and Soehn is already calling out Moreno during the game.

    Maybe it doesn't mean anything when the assistant coach tells the team captain to "move his ass" - ???
     
  21. Th4119

    Th4119 Member

    Jul 26, 2001
    Annandale, VA
    Talion, this is basically what I was trying to say.

    While you're right about Walker's assisting ability (and I'm a huge proponent of him getting more playing time, read some old threads from last year if you want proof), he still plays a more out and out striker role. I don't recall any of his assists coming off of through balls last year but more of when a ball would be played in to him while he was stretching the defense and then he would dump it off or dish it to a teammate.

    It's great that he set up the goals, but I would never call Walker a playmaker. My striker vs. posession forward description was completely based on where they place themselves on the field.
     
  22. owendylan

    owendylan Member

    May 30, 2001
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Jaime is now 5 goals behind Kries, who scored yesterday, for the all-time leading scorer in MLS history. I don't think Jame is playing much different than his first season here. Back then had the ability to mail it in for 89 minutes and then pull something breath-taking and score a goal. He may have slowed down a bit but I don't his game has changed that much. Jaime's fine.
     
  23. rugman

    rugman Member

    Oct 13, 2003
    Annapolis
    Actually it was Peter asking Jaime to do a little dance for Tom's birthday. Ellinger heard move your ass and complained to the league. :D
     
  24. elconejito

    elconejito Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Where Homer Lives
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the first game for jaime was *terrible*, but i am more than willing to chalk that up to a late arrival from the testimonial match in bolivia. The second game was much better, and in this one it was hard to tell since I was watching the tiny internet feed.

    At this point I'm not concerned... yet. But i was one of the few (if not the only one) who was concerned about jaime's fitness _last year_ especially as the season wore on and he was the only guy along with maybe Brian Carroll and Josh Gros who played almost every minute of every single game. As you can surely tell, Gros and Carroll are built to run all day and they do run all day. Jaime is not. And didn't he say last year that he was tired?

    I'm not saying that he should necessarily be subbed every game, but his minutes should be monitored. I believe he needs a break every so often, and there are plenty of players who are dying to take some of his minutes. I just don't want to see a situation where he *never* gets subbed off, as it seemed last year.

    Just for comparison, I pulled up some numbers from 2005. This is really rough, and I don't know if this includes the other tourneys like Open cup, Sudamerica, or CCC. My only point is that the "getting older, never in the greatest shape to begin with, gets hacked alot by defenders" guy we depend on so much for offense averaged the second most minutes per game on the team last year. I just think somebody should keep an eye on his minutes. He isn't old *yet* but he is getting there...

    Code:
    Name       Games   Min     [b]Avg Min/Game[/b]
    Carroll    32      2567    80.2
    Gros       30      2563    85.4
    ----------------------------
    Moreno     29      2445    84.3
    Gomez      31      2419    78.0
    Kovalenko  26      2057    79.1
    Olsen      23      1874    81.5
    Adu        25      1487    59.5
    
     
  25. Sundevil9

    Sundevil9 New Member

    Nov 23, 1999
    Reston, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a valid point. Especially as the opressive heat of the summer settles in. I'd rather see him build up minutes/fitness now, and then get some rest/recharging in during July and/or August.
     

Share This Page