I ma sure ther is something clever in there but how about translating for those of us too slow to get it.
The vast majority of developmental players are defensive-minded - Jewsbury, Borchers, Leitch, Salyer, etc. etc. It's not fair to blame a decline in league creativity on players who aren't meant to provide it. The argument that since no single player scored a bunch of goals, therefore offensive talent is weak is one of the worst that persist here. Arnaud is one of the best forwards in a league that featured Noonan, Ching, Moreno, Johnson, Wolff, Ralph, Buddle, Twellman, Donovan, and Ruiz in 2003. I think to the vast majority of bigsoccer posters, that's an impressive group to be bunched with. Because the entire damned argument is about economics. If you want to ignore the economic aspect of developmental players, of course they don't make sense. But you have this tendency to treat the players as one large group, that is entirely mediocre. When, of course, that's not the case, and there are a good number of mediocre developmental players, some average ones, and a few very good ones. The entire point of the program is to identify and give opportunities to the average and good ones, not to keep the crappy ones around forever. I think you're one of the very few people who actually believe the level of play of the league is declining. It's mind-boggling.
So often you hear "this league is getting better every year". After a while, saying and hearing this over and over, like a Hail Mary, leaves many accepting it as gospel. I have been watching for just 3 seasons now. Not as long as many of you, but during this time frame, I have not seen this improvement everyone speaks of. Generally, the quality seems too be about the same. If there has been any decline, its been subtle. Same with improvment side of the argument. I am not making any judgment on wether these 'Jewsbury-esque' players offer good bang for the buck. They probably do. But I lean towards buying Rommul's case that these type of guys are roster spot fillers. They don't bring a ton to the party. Sure, an occasional gem might emerge (Arnold is a very good MLS player), but overall MLS needs more Guevarra's and less Jewsbury's to reveal a NOTICABLE improvent in quality. It's nice to say, but it's even nicer to see.
MLS is looking for these guys. Doesn't mean they're out there. I hope they are. There will be 7 international spots per year next year (up from an average of 5). There a real financial constrictions at play. The US isn't the best soccer market yet for a pro league and stadium construction ought to be the # priority after keeping the young players in pro soccer. Chicago only used 2/3 SI's. Columbus 2/3 and 1/3 after a green card. Metrostars had Bonseu and SGR. NE had Howey. Colorado with almost zero production from 4 SIs (Powell, Roberts, Delgado and Spencer's last year), Dallas had Nhlecko, KC with Vuk Rasovic. LA with 3 decent SIs but only 2 after Moreno's GC. SJ with only 2/3 SIs filled. Maybe more SIs isn't the isssue. LA and maybe MET and DAL are the only teams with a 3rd SI better to me than these role players some complain about. So is raising this limit going to help if teams can't even get production out of a 3rd SI slot? With 4 SIs and 3 TIs, what's the complaint? Start arguing for a salary cap if you want better foreign players in MLS and a better quality of play. And be prepared to justify that given that MLS is still losing millions.
My guess is you and I can already see the results if those teams lost their internationals to WCQ like MLS does. It's called the Coca Cola Championship League or whatever their calling Division 1 these days over there. And Arsenal without Henry and Viera is called Newcastle United. I consider those to be a pretty signifacant decline. Have you ever stopped to think it might be both. Goals are down, and that's what we're really talking about here, because the quality of play is actually better on the defensive side of the ball? Every team has a GK that could go anywhere in the world and perform, if not excell. Hell most of the backups too. The good defenders in the league have been bottlenecked into 10 teams as well and the majority of the puds sent packing over the last three years. The last 3 drafts have yeilded some pretty good defensive players and generally speaking defenders adjust to professional soccer quicker then offensive players. All the while, the only signifacant defender that has left the league in the last 3 years has been Boca, while at the same time we've seen the lose of Cien, Etch, Nowark, and Valdarramma on the offensive side. You don't just replace those type of players overnight. The offensive talent may very well be declining, that doesn't mean the league as a WHOLE is declining in talent; just a section of it. Anyway sports seem to run in cycles. It seems to me that in the early years of MLS, goals were being scored like crazy. So teams go out and look for better defensive talent to stop the goals and coaches became more defensive. Now that defense seems to rule, I bet teams go out and try to find offensive talent and the next batch of coaches are more offensive minded. And so on and so forth. Also I think it's important to keep in mind the DP "program" has only been around for 3 years. No one can say that there won't be "World Beaters" in the future as the "program" evolves. Right now I think it's pretty impressive that in 3 years it's produced several good MLS players.
I doubt that. He went to Saint Louis University, a catholic university. Of course, I am only assuming that he is not jewish. I go to SLU, and not only am I not catholic, but I know a few jewish students. But, the vast majority of students are catholic.
Yet some how the US "system" of development and MLS has contributed a large number of players to a National team that over the last 6 or 7 years has been widely considered one of the top 10 teams in the world. I wonder how that can be if they didn't WANT to produce skillful players and just cared about price?
I don't blame them I blame the people who believe these palyers are the answer to the leagues personel problems. The argument is only weak if you disagree with it. The fact of the matter is the attacking talent was entirely mediocre this year. I really am not impressed by what the vast majority of bifsoccer posters feel. I am much more concerned with what I saw on the field. I am also not rreally concerned with the excuses about how many were defensive minded. I don't want to ignore it at all. These players are here because they are cheap PRIMARILY. Not because of how good they are. WE need to admit that and stop pretending these players are some revelations talent wise. They are cheap roster filler. Unfortunately we are at the point in this league where cheap roster filler is seen as some sort of "success story". I don't really care to get excited about these players. They contribute to what is an increasingly uncompelling and unentertaining product on the field. This league sees cheap filler talent as its future. It should be called on that. To you maybe. To me its quite clear.
Listen if you want to believe that tripe go right on ahead and lie to yourself. But if Henry goes down there is this guys called Jose Reyes who will take his place. If Viera goes down there is this guy called Edu and this guy called Gilberto Silva who take his place. All three are internationals but none are first choice players for their respective national team so they will be there when the others are called up for national duty. And that is MLS's problem there is massive drop off in talent from the starters to the bench players. If you want to pretend EPL is like that feel free. I might consider that if I didn't see teams run around the field consistently with no idea about how to create. If I were seeing a league where creative players were being stuffed by tremendously competent defenses there would be no argument. But thats not what I see. I see teams struggling to find ideas about how to move the ball. I am sorry but that is bullplop. People overate MLS keepers way too much. Bruce Arena has his faults but this is not one of them. It is no surprise that he depends only on the three keepers in England and one out of form keeper in MLS to use on the national team. How many of these MLS keeper are even in the frame with the national team. WE have one keeper close to retirement, one one the bench and one just coming off the bench so the opportunities should be there. I have a question if so many of these GK's as well as backups could go anywhere and excel why don't they? Its not like americans don't find work in other leagues easily. MLS players get trial all over the continent and many of them are good enough to stick. Why is that this country which is known for producing quality keepers doesn't have more of these guys getting jobs overseas? It can't be the money keeping them here most of these guys make very little. Could it be that these gusy look great in MLS but when looked at in the international context are simply not as good as people make them out to be. Like I said if what I saw was creative woirk being shut down by great defending I would have no argument but I don't see that. I see a lot of inability to create. You don't think those players are huge losses? Who have they been replaced with? They represent a drop loss of talent that has yet to be replenished. Doesn't the fact that only one elite defender has left in recent years say something about the quality of the defending here? Isn't it even remotely possible that the defenders and goalkeepers simply aren't as good as people say they are? Unless the drop in talent the loss of these players represent was immediately offset by a commensurate rise in defensive talent there is no choice but to conclude that the overall talent level has declined. And the fact of the matter is there has not been a rise in defensive talent to compensate becuase if there was we wouldn't be seeing all this cynical fouling we hear complaints about all the time. If the offensive talent went down (as you admit) then these wonderful defensive players you talk about wouldn't have to resort to the hack play we all have witnessed in this league. I am sorry this theory about a rise in defensive talent jsut does not stand up to scrutiny. Lets hope so. 1. I don't know many world beaters that started playing professionally after the age of 20 so I think that is just opie in the sky hoping on peoples part. 2. "Several good MLS players" may be enough to set some peoples hearts a twitter but it simply is not enough for many. When people set that as the bar they need stop using euronsobeery as the reason why many fans of the game are not interested in MLS. 3. If this program was about taking young kids and giving them a real developmental opportunity in a professional environment I would have no problem. But its not. Its simply about creating filler.
1. The US has not been considered one of the top ten teams for 6 to 7 years. Were we considered a top ten team in 98? 2. Uh beside the US "system" and MLs where else are the players supposed to come from? Its not really surprising that this is where the majority of players on the national team come from. 3. With all due respect to the bigsoccer faithful the top ten ranking ringshollow to me whe I see the team go into Amsterdam Arena and bunker against a true top ten team becaus ethey were simply afriad of the talent they were facing. We will have arrived not when we gain a high ranking in an almost meaningless FIFA stat. We will ahve arrived when we can go into places like Holland and play these teams head to head without fear of being run over. That is far more important that some ranking. What good is being ranked 10th if you can't face the mght of the great teams out there?
Garcia played mostly right back this year for KC. I don't think all that much of him as a player, but he certainly does his job in MLS well enough. He is a bit of a grabber and clutcher though luke a lot of good MLS defenders (Pierce, Fraser, Namoff, Jolley, Suarez, Califf, Petke, C.J. Brown, etc.). From what little he's played for the Nats he does look a bit below that level, but he hasn't had a ton of opportunities either. My opinion on KC's season is that they had a very good season primarily because they were the only MLS team without any truly weak players out on the field. Everybody could play a little. Everybody else had players in the Jay Heaps mold: bad players who happen to play a position the team has few options at. That said, I thought they were significantly stronger when Klein was still playing than they were after his injury. Jewsbury surprised me at times by being okay enough to get a few things done, but he never really struck me as a guy a level above two dozen other players who are very good A-leaguers. Jewsbury will have a hard time getting a substantial raise because he'd price himself right out of a job.
KC was one of the most disciplined counterattacking teams I have seen in this league. They were able to pull it off like clock work against my metros. It all came from the discipline they had and the team defense philosophy they had (which was excellent). Unfortunately they couldn't pull it off against a more physical DC team.
Nick Garcia played right back through August 14th when Landon Donovan exposed Shavar Thomas and Jimmy Conrad. After August 14th, Nick Garcia played center back paired with Jimmy Conrad and Alex Zotinca played right back.
This is quite possibly true. MLS still hasn't completely seperated itself from the USL Divison 1 in that certain players can make more money, and be the "star" in USL rather than being part of the chorus on an MLS squad. However, who knows where Jack's career will lead. Perhaps he's got the special something that carries less talented players to great heights. Or maybe 2004 was a "career year." One way or the other the next two years - baring injury - should help us find out.
unfair, unfair. do we need a "Jay Heaps" thread now Heaps was ROTY a while back for all those saying the level of play has declined I'm not going to argue he's any all-star, but he's a much better athlete than given credit for by most here. I think he's out of position playing as a defender, but it's where he can get minutes. I think he'd have made an average RM
What did the following teams have in common in 2004? Dallas Burn, Chicago Fire, New England Revolution If you said that they were the three worst teams in MLS, you'd be right. If you said that they were the three teams that had Dookies start the majority of their games, you'd also be right.
Like I said Rommul, we'll just have to disagree on this. I absolutly reject the idea that a person magically forgets how to learn new things after 20, but as for the DPs, honestly whos to say that the group will stay the average 22-23 year age? I can definatly see in the next 2 to 3 years we could see a shift in that to 17-18 year olds. The one thing MLS couldn't give this age group before, that the NCAA could, is games. That's going to change with the reserve teams. Making 850-1000 dollars a month with some living expenses to play a game ain't bad for 17-18 year olds and most of them are ready to leave the house anyway. Throw in some tuition money and there's no way the NCAA could compete. Maybe or maybe not. I think over the next couple drafts, it will be interesting to see how many U-17s from Brandenton come out and how many Freshman, who typically don't come out, come out for the draft. Of course to you this will never even be a possability because you've convinced yourself that MLS doesn't want to develop talent.
It's unlikely that last year was a career year for Jack. There have only been two developmental players who played more than 500 minutes, and saw their minutes decline in subsequent seasons - Jeff Moore, pushed out by Bob Bradley, and Jesus Ochoa, currently starting in the Primera A (plus injured Chris Roner). But, in general, developmental players who see any significant playing time haven't seen a decline the following year.
If Kerry Zavagnin leaves this year, everyone should be able to see what Jack Jewsbury will be able to do as he will shoulder much more responsibility. He had a lot of defensive help this year, and was only moved forward at the end of this year because of the rash of injuries. The goal he scored in a pressure situation against the Earthquakes this year is class in any league. He has a range of skills, and if he could become the defensive presence of a KZ or Mastroeni, he'd be better than both. He's got the workrate already.