Ives gets it, calls the Rapids 'suckers'

Discussion in 'Colorado Rapids' started by JasonMa, Feb 11, 2008.

  1. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  2. DavidJames

    DavidJames Member+

    May 11, 2003
    Longmont
  3. askum33

    askum33 New Member

    Jun 2, 2004
    San Antonio, TX
    But he is kinda right on a point. DC has twice made a (perceived) killing on players that weren't going to stick around.
    Adu - was going to leave anyway.
    Gomez - out of contract and wasn't coming back.

    Now, the comparisons stop there, but I don't see how he is off the mark with this point.

    *edit* I would like to hear Plush's reaction to what was written. He has said for a while now that he doesn't understand why Colorado gets the wrap as being a cheap club and/or he doesn't believe that that is the perception of the club.
    Now that someone has written it for a national audience will he actually adress it?
     
  4. GoRapids

    GoRapids Member

    Sep 1, 1999
    Boulder CO
    I suppose the big question is if the Toronto bidding was real or not.
     
  5. askum33

    askum33 New Member

    Jun 2, 2004
    San Antonio, TX
    Real question for whom?
    If it was real, then the Rapids really wanted his rights huh?
    If it wasn't real, then craftly little DC'ers huh?
    Deals done, no way to tell now.
     
  6. Malaga CF fan

    Malaga CF fan Member

    Apr 19, 2000
    Fairfax, VA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is the crux of the article, and probably divides the Rapids' faithful into two camps, those who believe the Rapids FO's commitment to winning, and those who believe the Rapids only exist as another piece of the KSE entertainment portfolio - an asset but not a passion.

    I like to have my cake and eat it too. I like the move for Gomez and I honestly don't mind that the Rapids gave up the DP for two years. For one, I don't think we would have found a quality DP this year and for two, I firmly believe that any DP that the Rapids would have signed would wilt on the vine under the leadership of Clavijo. I'd rather that this organization, with its track record of stinginess, not get stung by the failure of a DP signing and cause them to be forever unwilling to splash cash on the right player.

    But I think there is a logical fallacy to Ives' argument that hasn't been considered. The Rapids didn't have to ever use their DP, and they didn't have to spend the money to get Gomez. Would it have surprised any of us who follow the club closely if, hypothetically speaking, the Rapids didn't use the DP slot for the next two years? Certainly, not every club in the MLS is going to sign a DP over the next two years. Are all of them CHEAP because of that? Maybe, maybe not. Is Houston cheap?

    Ives argument suggests that the Rapids are cheap because they purposefully traded away the DP so that they would never have to use it. Then why spend the money on Gomez at all? Why not just be content with a crappy club and a payroll that hovers around the lowest in the league?

    I am cynical, but I'm not so cynical to think that the whole reason the Rapids got rid of their DP was so they would never have to use it. Ives argument seems to hinge on that assumption, and I think he's wrong.
     
  7. deron

    deron New Member

    Jul 25, 2006
    Centennial, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I said this elsewhere, but ignoring the Rapids side of the transaction and looking only at DCU you'd have to admire how well this worked for DC.

    They started with nothing. They couldn't sign Gomez anyway. They ended up with a DP slot, and 2009 first rounders for trading something they couldn't use.

    That's beautiful. I wish we could do that someday.
     
  8. scheck

    scheck Member

    Mar 13, 2007
    Denver
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I like his analysis of the FO in using this acquisition to prove their unparalleled commitment to the product on the field.

    It's only saving them money, so it's not really the best example.
     
  9. DavidJames

    DavidJames Member+

    May 11, 2003
    Longmont
    Why wasn't this put in the other Gomez thread, you know, the one about the Rapids acquiring him, other then to create a brand new thread to bitch I mean?

    or did I just answer my own question?
     
  10. scheck

    scheck Member

    Mar 13, 2007
    Denver
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because the payroll is payed by the league. They arent saving any money directly by going 200k under the cap. maybe they save the league 200k, but what is that divided up among 14 different groups of billionaires?

    Ives isn't so much saying that the rapids are cheap, he just disagrees with their assertion that because they got Gomez they are fully committed to the organization. Don't get me wrong, I'm super excited about this deal, but it's not costing the rapids anything and it's only serving to give them an excuse to be stingy in the future by eliminating the possibility to spend money on a big player.


    So - getting someone under the cap doesn't mean you're investing anything worthwhile, as you're doing the same thing every other team is doing.

    By getting a DP, you're paying most of his salary straight from your own pocket. It's the ultimate show of interest in the team.
     
  11. Michel_Platini

    Mar 21, 2005
    Yeah I can't help but think DC got the better deal. A DP slot and a 1st round pick.

    Ives is right that New England and Houston have done well without a DP: by finding good players and developing them.

    We, on the other hand, have traded away Beckerman, who was one of our best development stories, Alain Nkong, who was dominat at times and still young, and drafted Greg Dalbey who had no interest in playing in the MLS.

    So, the upside is we didn't give away any players for Gomez, but we won't have a DP for a few years
     
  12. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because I felt that a national columnist writing a column for the largest sports media organization soely about the Rapids side of the Gomez trade merited its own thread. If the mods disagree they should feel free to merge it.

    And if you think my comments about Ives getting it were directed at the part where he used the examples of trading away Adu and Gomez, and somehow that means he was comparing them and that I was agreeing with him, well, its not I who needs to stop listening to dismemberment.
     
  13. Bonji

    Bonji Moderator

    Feb 4, 2003
    Denver, Colorado
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We've talked about this enough, haven't we?

    Yes, the Rapids paid a lot, but Ives is right...look what they're saving. They're not spending the $600,000+ to bring in a DP. They never were going to. The budget doesn't allow it.

    Did the Rapids over pay for him? Can you really say? If Gomez comes in and plays well, lifting the Rapids to the playoffs and possibly winning something, then I don't think we overpaid, because that is what a DP should do too.

    If anything, I'm glad Plush/Clavijo didn't go out and sign a DP because there is a good chance of failure with that type of signing. Leave it to the Rapids to ******** up a DP signing, right? This way the Rapids sign a good player who can help the team, no matter what the price.
     
  14. teddy_montoya

    teddy_montoya RapidsThugLife

    Nov 9, 2006
    Supporters Terrace
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think the Rapids can do any worse than FCD. Denilson was terrible....
     
  15. Dtone

    Dtone Member

    Sounders
    United States
    Jul 29, 2007
    East Wenatchee
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    But I don't think FCD signed Denilson for that much money...not even as much as Gomez...

    In any case his quality was terrible, but they did the smart thing and left room to get out of the situation (as they did this year) if things did not pan out.
     
  16. Bonji

    Bonji Moderator

    Feb 4, 2003
    Denver, Colorado
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He was a DP, was he not? That means a lot of money, more then what the Rapids are paying Gomez. But this isn't about Denilson or any other DP.

    We've been pleading with the team to do something to improve it, and now we're not happy about how they brought in one of the best players in the league on a regular salary? Let's give this deal some time before we call the Rapids suckers. Ives likes a headline. There is a chance this goes the other direction and Gomez produces much more then DC's DP Gallardo. What will Ives say then?

    Let's wait for some results on the field and not let overall negativity kill this great signing. I for one am excited to have Gomez and now feel like my season tickets are worth it.
     
  17. Boots Utd

    Boots Utd Member

    Jan 19, 2008
    Denver
    It was reported that Denilson was signed for $750 k. I don't know if that was prorated over the half year or so that he played, or if it was the full $750k.
     
  18. scheck

    scheck Member

    Mar 13, 2007
    Denver
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    it was prorated but he only got like 80k
     
  19. GoRapids

    GoRapids Member

    Sep 1, 1999
    Boulder CO
    Let's look at it another way - let's say the Rapids used the DP - went out and signed an Argentine player for $500K named Marv Gomez and he performed as well as Christian Gomez in 2006 or 2007 ... are we still getting robbed?

    I'm with Bonji - do I think we paid an enormous price? YES - but this is Christian Gomez ... could the team have maybe negotiated a better deal ... MAYBE - but WE GOT CHRISTIAN GOMEZ!!

    So many people want to smack down anything Rapids without even giving it a chance. "Look Ives agrees with what I think!!!" Last I knew Ives could give two turds about the Rapids and would probably love to see this sink the Rapids. :confused:

    I still say we gave up something we had no intention of using (besides the pick) and hey - until DC uses it ... it's nothing for them either. And hopefully if they do use it ... they'll use it to pick up the next Denilson and pick a Taj Jenkins (see because I like the Rapids and don't like DC)

    Or better yet - hopefully Gomez shows us some of the best ball we've ever seen in Colorado - and he makes Herc and Casey into the next Jaqua/Negwenya and takes us to the Cup. (see because I like the Rapids).

    I dunno - maybe we should just boo him when he steps on the field yelling "GIVE US BACK OUR DP SLOT WE WEREN'T GONNA USE!!! YOU AREN'T WORTH ANYTHING BECAUSE DC WASN'T GONNA SIGN YOU!!! BOOOOOO BOOOOO". :D
     
  20. FC5280

    FC5280 Member

    Dec 21, 2003
    Personally I like the move (been out of town for a few weeks and just saw this today and I am excited)

    1st round picks are meaningless to me. You could end up with Maurice Edu or you could end up with Steve Shak. And either way you can't tell me you wouldn't trade a 1st round pick for a guarantee player like CG10

    Now if we did give up the DP slot that only becomes meaningful if it actually gets used. If it doesn't get used then who freaking cares. Also I think the DP thing is only good thru the end of next year then the program gets re-evaluated by MLS to see if they want to continue it.

    In my mind CG10 for that is fine by me.
     
  21. DavidJames

    DavidJames Member+

    May 11, 2003
    Longmont
    That Ives, smart guy :)
     
  22. Malaga CF fan

    Malaga CF fan Member

    Apr 19, 2000
    Fairfax, VA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ives could give a toss about the Rapids, but they made a controversial move and he took a side.

    Good for him, but he's a little early to be calling this trade a miserable failure. Gomez's performance this year and DC's use of the DP will go a long way in determining what this trade really means.

    Personally, I think DC got the DP as an insurance policy. I don't think they are planning on using it now, but Luciano Emilio is known to be unhappy with his current contract and if he performs this year like he did last year, he'll command a bigger salary that only DP money can match and that means he'll either leave for free, or DC will sign him for with that 2nd DP slot.

    There's a hell of a lot of speculation about this trade, but in general, people are falling where their opinions of the clubs were before the trade ever happened. DC is known for making good deals and signing good players so most people outside of the Rapids faithful are going to side with DC thinking that they are the deal makers. A lot of Rapids fans here are thrilled that the team took a risk for a player of value and for once, we didn't give up an actual player of value in return.

    Until a ball has been kicked and a goal has been scored by Gomez, it's all hot air speculation on the real value of this trade. But if Gomez produces like he has the past three years and the Rapids truly improve over last year's team, then writers like Ives will be revisiting this trade and calling the Rapids another S-word. Shrewd.
     
  23. argaen

    argaen New Member

    Jul 7, 2003
    Tucson, Arizona
    This reminds me a lot of when the Phoenix Suns signed Steve Nash to a huge contract. Everyone was saying how ridiculous the Suns were for paying such an old player so much money. But he changed that team so much. Trading for, or signing, old players is risky business; hopefully Gomez can really kick-start the Rapids into the playoffs and beyond in a similar way that Nash did for the Suns.
     
  24. SoccaJ

    SoccaJ Member

    Colorado Rapids
    Jun 25, 2007
    Firestone, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This in my opinion is the best post on this thread (especially since Mark actually gets a little angry! woohoo!)

    But honestly....we did give up a lot, yes. But what we gave up was "possibilities" and in return we got as close to a sure thing as sports offers. Obviously, there is the possibility that Gomez may not be good for us....or maybe he gets injured....or maybe he's unhappy here and doesn't capture tha passion he had in DC. I don't know - that part is unwritten.

    What I do know is that whoever we may have drafted in next year would be totally unproven...and whoever we may have signed as a DP (Which I think we all know....KSE is not going to go out and spend millions to get a a real difference maker) would not have had the MLS track record that CG has. The fact is, we know CG can produce in the MLS and I'm pretty damn excited he's here.

    We now have ourselves the kind of #10 that can elevate the play and effectiveness of those around him. The way I see it, defenses will now have to really focus on the middle of the pitch leaving Cooke and Clark one-on-one on the wings, matchups I definitely like. Furthermore, it gives Herc more space to roam and, for his faults, one thing Herc does have in my opinion is wheels and the brain to make good runs.

    I'm not just focused on the stats CG brings to the table - I mean, I think he's definitely worth at least 15 goals between goals scored and assists. But what I don't think is accounted for in that stat is goals he'll create beyond his personal stats.

    Listen, I'm the first to admit this organization has some serious flaws. And, as long as Clavijo is on the sideline there is always the possibility of pure, unadulterated egocentrism and ineptitude. But.....this is a good trade that only helps this team for at least the next 2 years. COmbine that with the signing (finally) of a Technical Director and at least there is the perception of the FO trying to make strides in the right direction.

    Granted, I'm still gonna take a sit and wait approach before renewing my season tix. But at least now there's some faint light at the end of the proverbial tunnel rather than just the sound of my voice grumbling.
     
  25. GoRapids

    GoRapids Member

    Sep 1, 1999
    Boulder CO
    No dude - this is the post of the thread - with the bold being my emphasis.
     

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