Yes, the atmosphere was terrible 8 years ago........looks like a summer club friendly to me. AO has done a great job in organization but we were already on an upwards path. Certainly some credit has to go to them for brining more people to the games, but its not nearly all is because of them. With more fans come harder coordination and while at times it was loud in the stadium, there were certainly stretches were it was louder in 2005 then it was in 2013, especially in the South Stands.
For the record the club friendly atmosphere was specifically referring to 20 years ago (specifically the US cup in 93 my first exposure to US home games). Didn't mean to insinuate that US qualifiers just got atmospheres with the inception of AO. And I agree that the arrow has been pointing up as long as I have been following the US nats. Seems like the crowds get better every world cup (both in terms of numbers and atmosphere). But in my personal opinion I have seen the single largest difference in this last cycle, and I have to give a lot of the credit to AO. Now I will grant you that it is a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. There has been a massive growth in interest in US soccer across the board, and you could argue (I would disagree but there is merit) that AO was simply the group that was at the right place and right time, but either way I think they do deserve a lot of the credit for the current atmosphere at US qualifiers (and friendlies, still couldn't believe the atmosphere here in San Diego for a pre gold cup friendly)
Random thought. According to the new SI blurb, at the moment, AO has over 15,000 members. 15,000 x $20= $300,000! Then you factor in the two scarves they've made this year. Lets say together, they made two 1,000 scarf batches (including shipping, the price per scarf is at most, $8 a scarf). So they made $24,000 off of the two scarfs. Just amazing the kind of money AO could potentially be pulling in, and the World Cup is still months away! But I'm just bitching. Only thing to do is support the local AO (buy the local scarfs, t-shirts, etc.) and not National.
They had their tax returns out. You don't even have to speculate how much money they have based on scarves or whatever.
I know, but the most recent tax return is from 2011. Realistically, AO has had a massive expansion since the end of 2011. They went from having just over (or possibly under) 50 chapters to having 100 CHAPTERS in a short one and a half years. Hell, look at the supporters sections. In 2011, the AO section was literally one section of the stadium (Camp Cupcake, 2011 Gold Cup Final, etc.) Now, in 2013, they've started covering multiple sections for every single match. Whether its a friendly, the Gold Cup, or a qualifier, AO is usually standing in the entire "endzone" portion of a stadium. They've definitely outgrown the 2011 revenue. We'll just have to wait a couple of months for the 2012 tax return to be posted (and unfortunately, two years for the 2013 return to be posted).
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/artic...referral&utm_content=News&utm_campaign=Unpaid Doesn't sound good either way.
My first reaction is, knowing how some of the away packages have been, why would you ever want to waste your money on tendot? My next reaction is, is the American Outlaws leadership really that stupid? My last reaction is that if PV's Army continues to cry the racism wolf, they did in Columbus as well, that's going to bite them eventually.
I don't know whats true and honestly don't care. But the last 50 days has not been good press for AO in the us soccer community.
I think you're assuming that the $20 dues goes straight from the new member to AO National. It doesn't. It goes to the local chapter the new member joins. I'm a former AO chapter president (DFW #3 circa 2007, now split into Dallas and Ft. Worth chapters). When we signed up a new member, we collected the (then) $15 membership dues. Out of that, we bought the t-shirt, bandana, etc., for $11 from AO National, and kept the remaining $4 for our own use. Generally, we bought things like electrical ties to hang flags at parties and the like. I doubt that National made much profit from the $11 as they had costs for producing chapter banners, the t-shirts, shipping, etc. If I had to guess, I'd say that, out of that $11, they made maybe $3 profit. But let's say that, over their six years of existence, average profit per membership is $4. So ... $4 * 15,000 members = $60,000 total revenue, divided by six years divided by four guys at the center of it, means they've earned $2,500 per year per person *IF* they pocketed that money (which I know they didn't). $2,500 per person per year seems very little for the amount of work they've put into it and what the group has become. IMHO, if someone has a problem with that, that's on them. It's like bitching about your free pizza not having pepperoni.
Ah ok, my mistake. When you say "When we signed up a new member" does that mean the person signed up online and said "I want to join the Dallas/FT. Worth chapter." or does that mean they signed up in person at a viewing party, tailgate, etc.? And if that's the case for all memberships, does that mean they're making most of there profits from national merchandise sales and ticket sales? Sigh, I just have to many questions. "Over the years, PVA has apparently copied many aspects of American Outlaws’ business model”
Well, I don't pretend to think any answer you hear will satisfy you, but they still send out the t shirts, banners, etc. I'm not saying they don't make ANY profit. I'm saying that, if they do, it's so slight as to not be worth the time. I guessed $2,500 on my last post. Let's triple that, a ridiculous multiplier but oh well. That's $7,500 per person per year. For comparison, minimum wage (40 hours a week, 52 weeks) pays $15,600. Even if they pocket that $7,500 per person per year (which I know they don't), IMHO, that's far less than the value of what they've done for the USMNT and the game here in the states. You speak as if business is a bad thing. Anything this large has to resemble a business in some ways. There's nothing wrong or disparaging about it, and the comment tells us more about you than about AO. If you hate business, that's fine. But think where US support would be without AO. I've seen it in th doldrums between WCs and after 2002. We would still be there. I'm no AO apologist, but I have known Korey, Justin, Brian, Chris, etc., etc.. since just after they formed AO, and they are great guys with healthy personalities and pure motives. What they've been able to accomplish is unprecedented and Harvard Business School impressive. Stupid attacks on who they are and what they're doing rank right up there in class with Rafa Marquez and PVA.
Wait, business model is a derogatory thing? If you don't run your organization like a business, then I certainly don't want to be giving you money. It probably means you have no clue what your doing or where your money is going. Having a business model is called having a plan for what you do with your money. That's like deriding a person for having a personal finance budget.
Lost in the topics involving AO is the purpose of supporting the National Team. Once you start treating the supporter culture and all aspects about it like a business, well, things like this are bound to occur. Just an icky, and sometimes dubious aura with AO. I am going to go out on a limp and say that a good majority of AO chapters out there contain good honest people that know their purpose in and outside the stadium. It's the few headline makers or the ones that have a 'bro' element out there that seem to be ruining or even making a mockery of supporter culture.
Here's the thing, and I've explained this people elsewhere. It's really not the fact that AO generates income or has a budget. Pretty much every supporters group of any size has that. The issue I, as well and many others, have is where the money actually goes. Many of the organized supporters have a philosophy that supporting your team is solely about supporting your team, not about money. Money only serves and means to an end. The concept of taking personal compensation for heading a supporter group is very much counter to that philosophy.
Repped. I don't think anyone is really opposed to a supporters group for the national team, but the way AO is run and the way it attempts to control and homogenize everything is very much against the grain of why many people are supporters.
Sure but hating a shitty business model is different than hating that they have a business model. Unless your supporter group is planning consists of a 24 pack and a local rec league game, you need a plan. And if you wat your group to grow nationally you need a growth plan. Now if you're buying AO packages frankly I think your ignorant or rich.
I'm not speaking as if business is a bad thing. I'm speaking that AO has gone from just growing in numbers and supporting the national team to profiting off its members when they no longer need to. I completely understand why supporters groups become a 501c3, LLC, etc. They want to make sure all of the money stays in house, nothing is taken for personal benefits, etc. But you act like as if Korey and Justin created this business model that has never been seen before in supporters culture (According to the tax returns, its just Korey and Justin that are benefiting. Not Chris, Not Brian. etc. Just Korey and Justin). They just combined two business models. The club supporters group business model and the Sams Army business model. You could join Sams Army for free. For some club supporter groups, you have to pay a membership fee ($10, $15, $20 a year). Korey and Justin realized that the club supporters groups were expanding, but there was no group for the national team. Sams Army was basically dead. No one was leading the charge to support the national team. So they created AO. Instead of having free membership, they charged people to join to build up the bank account. And it went from being a small group of just a couple of chapters to the largest supporters group in the US. Like @Quinn 33 said, I just want to know where the money goes. And you're right. Its a damn good business. Wish I could have created it first. But I don't think the attacks are up with Rafa and PVA. I'm not using the race card. (edit: sort bounced around on that post. My bad)
See, I actually disagree with this. The lack of songs is discouraging. Chanting "I believe" for the 15th time a game is great but we should do better. I looked over the Dynamo song list and realized we've around 3 dozen songs/chants in 3 languages and hope that Us Supporters could have that. Kinda like a base of nationally recognized chants/songs and some local variations as well (and ffs, how about some Spanish songs?). Singing, chanting, clapping, dancing, waving flags/scarves/tshirts/smaller people...that's why we're there...to show our love of the team and support them and urge them to victory. At least that's how I see it.
Dynamo have a smaller group of people who are more familiar with each other and have what twenty odd games to work through? The US has a half dozen with mostly different people each time.
Wow the complaints are all over from they are to organized and structured to they aren't organized and structured enough. First nobody has to join. Being a US supporter and a member of AO are not the same. So if you don't like AO awesome don't pay them money. If you have concerns about where the money goes great don't pay them any. Nobody from Nebraska showed up at my house and forced me to pay 20 bucks and left a t-shirt and bandanna and ran off. Nope I willingly (and happily) payed them because I like the fact that there is a central group that is organizing the "adult" support at US matches. And I like to support the US team the way they do (usually with a few beers in me and standing). If you prefer to support the US in a different way more power to you. Don't pay them money or sit in that section. You are just as much a supporter as anyone else but don't complain about a group you don't have to join. Personally I feel I have gotten more than my money's worth out of being an AO member. But again I choose it, all of the complaining smells of sour grapes.
True and I know part of the fun is the local variety you get from game to game. Just wish that AO could get a database or something of local songs/chants that way if I travel to KC, for example, I'll have a good idea of what songs will probably be used besides just the National ones. I dunno..not really a complaint so much as a wish so AO could be as loud and organized as possible.
From their 2011 tax returns and what I've seen in my local chapter. #1 the local chapter doesn't receive $20 for each member. They're broke cause they sent it to Lincoln. They have no budget to operate on etc. #2 the AO reps fly in from Lincoln to "organize." By that I mean they show up and get wasted for 2 days because the local chapter sets everything up. Plane flight, room and board, and probably beer are all paid for by AO. #3 membership in AO is basically paying for some bros from Lincoln and the beer guy to fly around and watch all the USMNT games on their memberships dime. If you don't see that you're absolutely blind. I'm still absolutely surprised nobody has written about this.
Sounds like I should start my own supporters group. We will sing in foreign languages and members will pay to fly me around to get drunk. Please, if interested let me know and I will send you an application. @HomietheClown Interested? I will make you VP of Operations.