It's time to Reflect on the USA-Honduras Game

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by USAsoccer1, Oct 9, 2011.

  1. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    Kinda funny how in order to get a result, Klinsmann has to resort to Bradley-esque tactics.

    First Mexico. Now Honduras.

    I also love how the "Fire Bradley" mob is largely absent from most of these threads.
     
  2. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    By the way, that 18 minute breakaway by Hondy was offsides. Dolo was kind of sort of keeping him onside, but not really. Herein lies the major problem with playing this high line, you rely too much on incredibly fallible officiating.

    JK should have learned his lesson first match 2006 WC where CR beat it for the goal.
     
  3. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    Jesus man, you can't let go can you? Take a deep breath.
     
  4. schrutebuck

    schrutebuck Member+

    Jul 26, 2007
    Chandler kept him on. The officiating was correct on that.
     
  5. irish56

    irish56 Member+

    Oct 30, 2006
    indy
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    80% of the Fire Bradley crowd were crying for Klinsi.
     
  6. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    fyp
     
  7. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    Incorrect. TC was level with MOF who was a foot in front of Dolo. If anyone kept him on it was Dolo, but he didnt, also by a foot as the Hondy player had already begun his run before the ball left the foot. Stop the match at exactly 18mintues 44 seconds on fox soccer.
     
  8. schrutebuck

    schrutebuck Member+

    Jul 26, 2007
    Nope. Stopping the video exactly when Bengston is played through shows that Chandler unfortunately drifted too far behind the line. Great pass.

    I have it paused there right now.
     
  9. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    Here is another chicken-shit tendency by US players that kills me. Minute 52, Clint has the ball in teh bottom 3rd. He has 4 players level on the Hondy box, none make a run, so he goes to Edu, who since no one has made a run or made space for him to passes to, goes back to Dolo who is immediately pressured with no one to pass to.

    So now you have this:

    ------hondy-----hondy----hondy---hondy------
    ---Hondy------shea---------jozy-----------william--

    TC------Hondy--------Hondy----------hondy------------
    ---------Dempsey----------------------------------------
    -------------------------Edu------------------------------
    ------------------------------------------Dolo------------

    I don't mind the back passing, but neither Shea, Jozy, Williams or TC moved an inch while Dempsey is moving laterally across the pitch. They have him absolutely nothing to work with. Same with Edu.

    Ideally, if I where Jozy, I would make a push towards goal, moved shea up a bit taking the defender, then shea pushes it wide to TC from the space just created, you then have dempsey, shea, Jozy, williams and Edu all crashing the box on the ensuing TC cross. Instead you get zero. And Dempsey and Edu dont move to help either on the ensuing Dolo, Williams exchange.

    Very, Very frustrating.
     
  10. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006
    Has he been wrong?
     
  11. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006
    I think it is stunning to see how willing folks are just to gloss this over.

    I watched a second time last night and it was worse than I thought. They had quality chances and could easily have had more.

    I repeat...a decent, not great team, is gonna rock is one of these days if this continues. JK has the power to change the center mids and back two.

    Please do it.

    Figured out what was needed to get some chances...

    ...now time to take care of the middle.
     
  12. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    Breathing just fine.

    I just find if funny how people like yourself spent 5 years speaking about how tactically retarded Bob Bradley was.

    Then when you get your man, Klinsmann, I find it even more funny how he has to play similar tactics to Bradley in order to get results.

    And then I find it even more funny how the anti Bradley mob is really really quiet when Klinsmann plays a bunker and counter tactic against Mexico, and switches to a less possession oriented mindset to get the win against Honduras.

    Its just amusing to me.
     
  13. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why post when we're still basking in the happy after-glow of the Bob Bradley termination?;)

    And (recalling that you were in the small but very vocal minority of Bob Bradley fans at the end and the vast majority were in support of seeing Bob off), maybe there are a large number of USA fans that are doing the same thing now as when Bob was first appointed--giving the new manager a decent period of time to see how the team and players develop before rushing to any judgments.

    Moreover, I'm willing to give JK more rope because I suspect that while I believe that he has a better understanding of the game than Bob did, he came to the position with very little in the way of understanding of the player pool.

    Finally, JK is having to get our player pool to "unlearn" the approach to the game that was hammered into them since the Bruce Arena days. That requires time, in itself.

    People like me came to see Bob as part of the problem as a result of his large body of work, not from his first few months in the position.

    But, please, do carry on with your continuing agenda in support all things Bradley, as we know you will. The idea of drawing broad conclusions about JK's tactics during a period of experimentation and settling in (from a very small sample size) seems very sensible.
     
  14. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Card carrying "Fire Bradley" mob member here. Sorry for being tardy, I accidentally set my pitchfork on fire with my torch and it made me late.

    What exactly were these Bradley-esque tactics you speak of? Two strikers? Maybe Clint was a striker, maybe he was a midfielder. Either way he and Jozy don't make for the Bradley-esque pairing of a hold up striker and a really fast guy who sucks.

    Even when Bob was forced to play Clint as a striker, he only did so at the end of the game, after we had once again fallen behind and he needed Duece to bail him out. Starting Dempsey in the center was highly effective and very unBob like.

    Attributing the fact that the spacing was better and Jozy was not isolated, to JK somehow channeling the Bobster, is both sad and disturbing. The team is clearly not playing like a Bob team, they are trying to pass the ball on the ground, they are trying to build up in attack rather than race the clock and there is clearly a Dmid who is supposed to screen the back four.

    Now, are they doing all these things well? Not really. Is this the best way for us to play? Debatable. The specific point you are trying to make, that we must play like Bob in order to win, is flat out wrong.

    Klinsmann may suck when it is all said and done. I for one would like to know what happened to all the positions being open and trying to get a look at the whole pool. WTF is his love affair with Fiscal? Why don't John and Gonzalez get a look?

    Anyway, the idea that JK's tactics are like Bob's, or that he had to resort to Bob's tactics in order to win are wrong. Bob's way was not the only way. Bob's exit was long overdue and perfectly just. Bob is not coming back. Get over it. Switch your allegiance to Egypt already.
     
  15. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    Very funny, and sorry to hear that. A good pitchfork is hard to find these days.

     
  16. Otergod

    Otergod Member+

    Sep 20, 2007
    indianapolis
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you are tired of it, perhaps you should confront the one who started the "bradley-lovers" "bradley-haters" earlier.

    how long has Klinsmann been in the US? He's analyzed the team in depth. He's got QUITE the understanding of the US player pool.

    you want the nation to unlearn the approach, perhaps JK should have control of USSF focusing primarily on the youth and development aspect instead of the USMN position. Much like Bob and Bruce and ect. JK only has these players for a week at a time. Any learning and unlearning will take place at the club level. Pro's encounter new coaches with different styles all together. Learning how to adapt shouldn't be difficult unless the new manager is playing them out of position.

    dont get me wrong, i'm holding my judgment for now. JK deserves a shot and he's got a 1-2-1 record so far. Some positives, and some negatives.



    Who was his replacement out left? Feilhaber hasnt been a starter in my eyes since late 08. Rogers? Shea was still struggling at FCD. I am not defending the Findley experiment, ive posted my distaste for that (and pointed out better striker options).


    i dont think he said we have to play like bob to win. I think he said that JK resorted to playing like bob to get the result. And that he finds it humorous that people shunned bob and applaud JK for similar results. That game was anything but beautiful. Silly turn overs. Failed opportunities and give up several to Honduras. All factors Bob was criticized and yet seem to be glossed over now. But it was experimenting right? Bob tried new formations and players and was hounded.

    Again im not saying Bob should still be coaching, I'm glad he's out. Simply b/c im against more then 1 cycle per coach. A failed cycle now would have hurt his success in the 2010 cycle.

    LOL, perhaps this is JK's Findley?

    there were similarities and in the end perhaps the possession style team that we saw against Costa Rica and Belgium is simply not the US. Perhaps we are a mix between the old and JK's vision of the new. Either way your post was great (as usual) minus the last two to three sentences.

    YEA! just like the old days!!
     
  17. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I disagree if you're saying that JK has the same understanding at this point as Bob Bradley had, with Bradley's, what, nearly 10 years of coaching in MLS in addition to Bradley's time coaching the Olympic team (and serving as an assistant before that.

    I don't personally want the nation to do anything ...other that get out from under this Great Recession. In addition, I was talking about the USMNT player pool, not all soccer players in the nation, in general. Given that we're not talking about a club team, as you point out, and their time together is limited, they are having to learn how to play together as a team in this new style. Pros do have to learn to adapt to new styles, but it's a lot easier to do this in a club team when you have time together every day and not just for one or two weeks at a time. A lot of these guys have been playing together in one style for a long time, so some habits die hard. I'm not talking about anything other than how they will play together as a team.
     
  18. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ol'Bessy... I will never forget her. On the bright side there is no DNA evidence connecting me to the sweat pants now.

    One could argue that changing tactics from one game, (or one opponent), to another is anything but Bradley like.

    I still saw distinct differences between JK's team and Bob's team last game, as I said in my earlier post.

    This is the heart of the matter then. There are some retards who thought that, I am sure. However, there are also many retards who thought Bradley should be kept on for another cycle. What is the point of screaming at any of the retards?

    They don't care, they are retarded.

    There is some truth in this. I think there is also truth in the idea that some sweeping changes need to occur at some point and a bunch of friendlies is a better time to try some things, than is the heat of qualifying.

    It is a tough spot to be in I think. I have no sympathy for JK though, his rhetoric and his mandate are what make it tough. He said we can play differently AND get results, this is why he got the job. So he needs to put up or shut up.

    I do think it is unfair to call out the anti-Bradley mob at this stage, because absolutely no one, even the retards, said changes would be instantaneous.
     
  19. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    No, he is saying that Klinsmann has a lot more understanding than you are willing to admit (to help account for the poor play so far).

    He has been interviewing for this job for 5 years. He's had plenty of time to study the majority of the players.
     
  20. Otergod

    Otergod Member+

    Sep 20, 2007
    indianapolis
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i am not saying that. I am saying that JK has quite the knowledge of the US player pool. He may opt to try out a couple new faces b/c of club performance, but overall he knows who he has at his disposal.

    Majority of the US player pool has been playing together for years (at the national level). I understand the need to learn how to play together when you bring new faces in like Shea, Williams, etc.. But that isnt a factor due to the "approach to the game that was hammered into them since the Bruce Arena days". That is simply getting to know newer players.

    Those teams under BA and BB all played well as a team (for the most part). The games may have been ugly and grinded out for a result. Mor so that maybe the tactics were basic at times, but overall continuity between the teams have always been there. Being asked to play direct by one coach and then being asked to maintain possession by another takes time... but something a pro should be able to do.

    I dont discredit JK for trying to change the mindset of the national team. Bob did emphasize passing, though i'm sure he also emphasized playing fast and direct. IMO this will be a case of steps. First step would be similar to the Honduras match where we saw possession but also saw quick counter attacking stretches. Second step would be to maintain possession more while bringing players into the attack. Etc.... I think asking for it immediately was wrong as we maintained possession, but failed to create solid goal scoring opportunities.
     
  21. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    One would be horribly wrong in that argument.

    Bob's changes in tactics weren't always successful (4-3-3 at Saprissa comes to mind). But to say that he never changed tactics from game to game is flat out wrong.

    Shit he changed tactics just within the group stage of the Gold Cup this summer.

    I honestly don't recall anyone screaming that Bradley was the best option moving forward.

    Simply people pointing out that a coaching change wasn't likely to move the needle that much.

    As one poster already pointed out in this thread, and I have been saying since the day JK was hired....

    You make wide sweeping changes at the U015, U-17, U-20 and even the Olympic level.

    As these kids come up through the system, they have been developed by a different style of play and as they graduate to the senior side, a more natural transition occurs.

    To try and force wide sweeping changes at the senior level, with a rather cavalier disregard for the skill set of your current player pool, will almost never work out for the best. (unless you get really lucky).

    This is an area where we will never agree.
     
  22. Otergod

    Otergod Member+

    Sep 20, 2007
    indianapolis
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    he did say bradley-esque, therefore stating it resembled. Not necessarily saying it was page by page the Bob Bradley Book of Coaching. There were differences but there were quite the similarities as well

    as you both put, there are extremes on both ends. Most everyone tends to teeter somewhere in between

    i think for the most part you are right. However, as stated before, there were those who thought with a different manager we would have won the world cup (perhaps not quite that extreme :D).
     
  23. elvinjones

    elvinjones Member

    Jul 4, 2011
    San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Plus more exciting, more creative, better defensive organization, and...

    this.

    It's like we're marginally better. That's as good as it can get, knock on wood.
    So I agree we may learn that JK sucks, but at this point he was clearly the best decision for manager, imho. Let's hope the trend continues. I'll seriously reconsider after we're well underway in 2014 qualifiers.
     
  24. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    And that is where Big Soccer has been most disingenuous to Bob Bradley. In the eyes of Big Soccer he did nothing but play the empty bucket and only played lineups to feature Michael Bradley and Jon Bornstein. We only remember the bunker night in Wembley with Josh Wolff and say that is it.

    He made some ballsy changes over the years, some were really bad (@ Costa Rica), some were super lucky (Egypt - and the run that followed) some were interesting that didn't work (Gold Cup final vs. Mexico, Slovenia @ WC). There were in game adjustments (mainly from being down - that led to numerous comebacks) but it always came back that it was due to the players on the field not Bradley.
     
  25. Otergod

    Otergod Member+

    Sep 20, 2007
    indianapolis
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    yes

    eh... theres more possession, but i dont note any extra amounts of creativity.

    this better defensive organization is still leaking in opportunity after opportunity. We are still a defensive side that relies on Howard to come up big often.


    Most everyone (regardless of feelings towards bob) were agreeing that a new manager should have been picked after 2010. Bob's 5th year was up and down (to be nice). Few were truly saying bob should stay, but most "defenders" were saying a coaching change would not necessarily make us better. JK is testing new faces and tactics. We've seen some ups and downs. Obviously the friendlies dont matter, but i would like to see a solid side before Quals begin.
     

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