Yep, I was talking about the bar, although I haven't seen your "massive-assive stadium" and I would be happy to go there as well.
Wow... you haven't seen the new home of the Dallas Cowboys? You need to see this thing. Scroll down a bit in the thread to see the photos. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=121750&page=8 80k seats (with expansion capability of 100k), field-level suites (horrible for NFL, great for soccer), a retractable roof, the world's largest retractable glass doors, and the world's largest scoreboard (which will be centerhung like BC Place, but this gigantic screen is 4 double-decker buses high, 60 yards long, weighs 600 tons, and hangs 120 feet above the playing field, which will be REALGrass Matrix artificial turf, yet can be replaced with grass if absolutely necessary (like the World Cup, for example...) Its first-ever sporting event will be a 2009 CONCACAF Gold Cup Quarterfinal Doubleheader (try saying all that 5 times fast...) and the Jones family (who own the Cowboys) has already expressed interest in the US' World Cup bids for 2018 and 2022. There are also postings of a Chelsea/Club America match as well. Good place to play the world's game, IMO.
Pity Ottawa won't get in for 2011, I was hoping to see another all-Ontario rivalry created. While I'd like to see Ottawa join in 2012, the problem now is going to be that the growing interest in the league will bring other wealthy owners and larger cities into the mix for #19 and #20. It's not just St. Louis and Ottawa going for those spots, surely Montreal and many others will be serious contenders. Unfortunately, you have to think that Ottawa might have to wait beyond 2012 for MLS now regardless of what the council votes.
If Melnyk gets his stadium plan approved, MLS will give a team to him; there is no doubt in my mind. I honestly cannot see Gene's heavy pro-MLS bid getting passed over for a Montreal bid that tries to short-change the league (financially and through the media) on a near-constant basis, no matter how good their fanbase is. I just think Saputo has burned waaaay too many bridges with MLS and has finally worn out his welcome. MLS simply will not allow owners into the league that they cannot work with or reason with. It's not just the fanbase that matters, but also the ownership group. It really is a shame for Montreal fans to have to go through all this, but mark my words: Gene's plan gets approved by City = MLS in Ottawa 2012, regardless of Montreal's fanbase. The only way Montreal gets a team now (in my honest opinion) is with another rich dude willing to pay up or Saputo royally kisses MLS' collective asses, starting yesterday. Pucker up, Joey...
I could introduce you to several City Councillors in Collinsville, Illinois who were told the same thing.
I agree with what you are saying about Saputo. It occurred to me that if Tom Hicks is successful in selling his share in Liverpool FC then he would have more than enough money to buy out Saputo and pay the franchise fee. It could represent Montreal's best bet moving forward.
I've just realised it's George Gillett who shares ownership and not Tom Hicks. There is no way that they would work with each other!! Put my Tom Hicks idea in the waste bin.
Melnyk's comments on Portland are out: http://www.bringtheworldtoottawa.ca/pdf/090320.pdf Nothing unexpected except perhaps the last paragraph: "In the coming days, I am confident Commissioner Garber will be able to turn his focus to the league’s expansion plans beyond 2011 and reaffirm that Ottawa remains under active consideration.” Does this imply that he is looking for more than just a suggestion that Ottawa join the 2012 bidding process later this year?
I would think Melnyk and Garber have talked in the last couple of days, so hopefully Melnyk has some idea what Garber is up to. If City Council greenlights the stadium, I wonder how soon the enviro assessment can be done. As soon as THAT happens, I would think we would be cleared to either have an announcement from MLS ... or not.
Well, exactly one month to go before the crucial vote. Should be an interesting few weeks of consultations and public debate! And with the Sens out of the playoffs (barring an even bigger miracle than us getting an MLS team) it should all get a lot of play in the media.
April 6 is the next big milestone, when the Ottawa staff report on the two bids is tabled (and posted on ottawa.ca). If the LL group haven't significantly improved their proposal from what they originally put foward, I think Melnyk will win.
I would be very surprised to see Melnyk win this one (I have been wrong before). There would be little logic to him winning. Two things stare down any city council; 1- With LL you automatically get a CFL franchise, as for MLS there is only hope at this point. We don't even know if MLS will expand in the near future (nothing concrete yet) and if Ottawa would stand a chance with revamped offers from New York, Miami, St.Louis, Montreal, San Diego etc. etc. 2- Even if you build a SSS stadium in Kanata, you still have to deal with Lansdowne. It has to be renovated, or destroyed (if so, where do you put the Ottawa 67's? The most successful junior hockey franchise in the country).
I too have been known to be wrong, but… 1. City council care very little for which sports franchise may or may not have been awarded. They are looking at the proposals mainly with regard to risk to the city. Obviously if they were to decide in favour of Kanata, it would be conditional for maybe 12 months, on the award of an MLS franchise. Without that award, obviously Melnyk would be unable to deliver his guaranteed results to the city. The risk to the city of awarding to Melnyk would be that the conditional period may expire without a franchise being awarded, and then the city would be out of pocket for the $2-4M required to maintain Lansdowne for an additional year. If I were on council there would be a penalty clause in the award to Melnyk, which would at least cover any city costs during that time. 2. As for point 1, the city is looking after its own interests, not the interests of a junior hockey team. The 67s could play at Scotiabank Place with curtains blocking off the third level. Again, if I was on council, the award to Melnyk would ensure that the 67s would be able to play there at a similar cost structure to playing at Lansdowne. You are correct that we would still need to do something with Lansdowne, but I am tired of people saying that it is a liability that must be dealt with. It is an asset worth around $160M that costs in the order of $2-4M to maintain at the moment. That’s similar to someone owning a house worth $160K and having to spend $2-4K in maintenance, property taxes, utilities etc. That person would not view their house as a liability. It is an asset. Would you sign over your house to someone for 30 years, and borrow $100K to build an extension for them, as an incentive for them to take it off your hands, just to avoid that $2-4K a year in maintenance? Regardless of soccer vs CFL, the Lansdowne Live proposal as it was originally presented, is a terrible deal for the city. We will see on April 6 whether they have changed their proposal now that they have competition.
Can they not tear down lansdowne without tearing down the civic center? I know that part of the roof is integrated in the stands of the stadium, but it doesn't seem totally implausible that they could salvage the arena portion, but then of course I'm no engineer.
Agree that the Lansdowne Live proposal could be financially very disadvantageous for the City, but there is very little information available to understand the finances of their proposal. If the City may be looking for some kind of compromise, here is a suggested plan I have emailed to all City councillors today. Any views/suggestions are welcome........ Proposals for Ottawa MLS and CFL franchises and stadium development 1. The City of Ottawa is planning to decide on MLS and CFL stadium proposals at Kanata and Lansdowne Park by the end of April. 2. CFL in Ottawa has failed twice already so there must be some doubt whether it could be successful and well supported in the longer term. 3. The Hunt group proposing to bring back CFL to Ottawa has a conditional agreement with the CFL for a future season. 4. The Hunt group wishes to take over and develop the Lansdowne Park area. The CFL team would play there. They say it could also be used for MLS soccer. 5. Much of the Lansdowne Park stadium dates back to the 1970s or earlier. It is in poor condition and deteriorating each year especially in recent years having been little used. The structure of the existing stadium cannot be expected to be serviceable in the longer term e.g. taking a 20 or 25 year timeframe into account. Part of the southside seating has been recently demolished as it was declared to be unsafe. 6. There have been some questions as to whether the Hunt group is totally committed to ensuring that a CFL franchise is successful in the longer term and whether their proposal is more oriented to ownership and development of the land at Lansdowne Park. These questions may or may not be justified, but is not possible to assess this as the detailed proposal has not yet been made public and the Lansdowne Live website does not yet provide detailed information. 7. MLS requires that new clubs play in a soccer-specific-stadium. That is a stadium designed to be primarily used for soccer . It does not preclude the stadium being used for other purposes, so CFL football could also be played at an MLS stadium. The CFL football field dimension is a little longer than the FIFA soccer field length. The field widths are similar. The Melnyk stadium playing area would need to be flexible to be able to accommodate both football and soccer. 8. The Melnyk MLS group has proposed an Ottawa MLS team to play at a new stadium in Kanata across the car park from Scotiabank Place, plus a number of adjacent soccer fields for community use year-round with domes They originally said that it would be soccer-only, but recently indicated that CFL football could also be accommodated at a future date after soccer is established. 9. MLS has not granted the Melnyk group an MLS franchise for the 2011 season due to not having a firm stadium plan. The Melnyk group’s Ottawa MLS proposal is reported to be a front runner for an MLS franchise for the 2012 season if suitable stadium plans can be finalized. Suggested City of Ottawa Plan:- Agree to the Melnyk Kanata stadium plan providing that it is designed to enable soccer and football in future to be played, conditional on the Melnyk group being awarded an MLS franchise for 2012 (or also possibly for 2013). If the Melnyk group fails to win a conditional MLS franchise for 2012 or 2013 by an agreed date, then their group’s Kanata stadium plans would be terminated. Agree to the Hunt group CFL franchise also going ahead (assumed to be starting in the 2010 CFL football season), playing at Lansdowne Park as it is today. This assumes of course that the existing Lansdowne Park stadium structure is certified as sound, safe and serviceable for at least e.g. 4 or 5 years. This enables the CFL franchise plan to go ahead but without major development expense for the City of Ottawa or for the Hunt group. If the existing Lansdowne Park stadium cannot be adequately certified and an Ottawa CFL franchise cannot proceed, then if the Kanata MLS stadium is going ahead, the existing Lansdowne Park stadium would most likely have no viable future. The Ottawa CFL franchise could be given a period of e.g. 3 seasons to demonstrate that it is viable, successful and adequately supported. If it is not, then the CFL franchise would again be lost, the use of Lansdowne Park for football would be terminated and the area could then be subject to a complete re-development for alternative uses without a football/soccer stadium and subject to overall design competitions, as a number of parties and councillors have suggested. If the Ottawa CFL franchise is successful and along with the CFL is agreed to be viable for the longer term future, then the ownership of the team could either decide to re-propose a stadium re-development plan as part of an overall plan for Lansdowne Park, or the team ownership could decide to make an agreement with the Melnyk group to play future home CFL games at the Kanata stadium and move out of Lansdowne Park. The Lansdowne Park area could then be sold or re-developed for multiple uses with a design competition etc. This of course assumes that the Ottawa MLS soccer franchise is successfully established as has been “guaranteed” by the Melnyk group. This overall plan would enable both groups to accept Ottawa franchises if they are granted by the CFL and MLS. It would enable the existing Lansdowne Park stadium to be used for several years to conclude on whether Ottawa CFL can be successful in future without substantial investment by the City of Ottawa or the Hunt group. If successful it would enable future possibilities of the CFL team either staying in a re-developed Lansdowne Park stadium, or alternatively permanently moving to play CFL football at the Kanata stadium at a future date.
its a nice idea to see if CFL will work but you seem to forget that the lower south side has already been demolished and needs to be rebuilt before anything can happen. Also, it will not be possible to renovate the stadium 3 years after the team starts playing. There is no alternate facility to eb used during a construction year. this debate will likely come down to having a stadium downtown or in Kanata rather than football vs. soccer
Replacement of the lower south side isn't needed for a CFL team to be able to play at Lansdowne. The existing North and Southside seating would be fine and adequate if it is safe. If a CFL team is viable in the long term and Lansdowne stadium reconstruction goes ahead after a few years, the CFL team could play at the Kanata stadium for an interim period during construction.
If the soccer stadium is built, it would not surprise me if Melnyk decided to put in a bid for a CFL franchise that way he could capitalize off of both markets.
Yes, I can see that happening. The additional costs of running a CFL franchise would be quite small if you controlled the stadium and amortised costs across both. Having said that, if the MLS team started playing in 2012, I don't see a CFL team in Kanata until at least 2014. I would imagine that they would want to have the soccer team for at least a couple of years before they introduced CFL.
It would be an embarrassment to this City when on TV you cant see a single fan. Everybody wants soccer to succeed but a realistic view has to be taken on what can and cant happen