Italy v Portugal

Discussion in 'Portugal: National Teams' started by Jonathan Pimentel, Nov 17, 2018.

  1. HandofAbel

    HandofAbel Member

    Liverpool FC
    Portugal
    Jun 19, 2017
    eu estou aqui
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    I agree with this 100%.

    And, furthermore, I do not believe that the current crop or younger generation Portuguese footballers lack self belief or confidence as to what can be accomplished at the major international level.

    Indeed, the golden generation themselves, even though they were far more skilled and technically brilliantly is more likely to have had those issues and a final lost on home soil might be the biggest indication to that.

    Those guys grew up in a very different Portugal than these guys did in terms of dealing with a sense of international inferiority, not only in soccer, but politically and terms of quality of life.

    The golden generation grew up at time were the confidence of Portuguese national identity was not very high, and terms of soccer, they had no memory of Eusebio’s 1966 inspired run and saw a talented team in the mid 80s not be able to put things together enough to justify their quality.

    I’ve often wondered if the golden generation had self doubt, somewhere deep within them. A thought of -“well, we know we’re good, but can we as tiny Portugal actually stake a place next to the true giant national teams by winning a title?”

    In 2004 they had the fish on the bait and let it slip through their hands.

    Now looking at today’s professional footballer? These guys have seen the success of the golden generation which indeed did elevate Portugal two tiers from where they were in the international game. They’ve Portuguese players go to the biggest clubs in Europe for significant transfer fees. They’ve seen Cristiano Ronaldo become the best player in the world and be recognized as such with 5 ballon dors!!!

    And, most importantly, they’ve seen us walk into a tournament final to play vs one of bogey teams in their house, lose our superstar early in the game and somehow find a way to win the ultimate prize.

    They might execute sometimes, but I don’t buy for a minute the mentality of the squad these days is to think of themselves as a minnow or small team.
     
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  2. Tertuliano

    Tertuliano Member

    Jun 4, 2018
    Honestly, I want to agree, I was starting to think different, the youth teams success, different levels, Euro win, etc...honestly, I thought this is it, Portugal going to make huge hump, but nahh, still see it, Portugal senior team still suffers from ''''small team ' syndrome, fold like a cheap suit...you can just see it, not necessarily today or this tournament, but can you imagine this Portugal playing against a top team in gear, my goodness, slaughter, not lack of ability, lack of mental toughness
     
  3. HandofAbel

    HandofAbel Member

    Liverpool FC
    Portugal
    Jun 19, 2017
    eu estou aqui
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    I don’t want to take anything away from how out of sorts they looked for for too long in this game. They did not look like a top level side in the least.

    I just feel it was more of a lack of execution, even a lethargic effort rather than a lack of self belief.
     
  4. Tertuliano

    Tertuliano Member

    Jun 4, 2018
    That is all fine and good, and it may be true! But these opportunities are where you show your mettle, we knew what we would be up against. I know how the OLD Portugal would react, was hoping for something better, turns out the NEW Portugal reacted the same way but had some good fortune and a snake bitten opponent . Don't fool yourself,any other top 10 nation we lose soundly today. Not good enough.
     
  5. HandofAbel

    HandofAbel Member

    Liverpool FC
    Portugal
    Jun 19, 2017
    eu estou aqui
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    I definitely agree that had this performance gone up against a better, more seasoned team we would’ve lost. And possibly by an embarrassing score line.
     
  6. Jonathan Pimentel

    Aug 29, 2013
    Club:
    SL Benfica
    Honestly, man.

    I do not disagree. I feel that Portugal at times still plays with this small team mentality, which bothers be because talent wise, we should be able to go head to head with any NT in the world based on quality.

    With that being said, as poorly as Portugal played today, i didnt feel threatened at all by Italy (minus that one half break away chance Patricio made the foot save on).. but that was it. Everything else was broken plays.. shots from distance (which any team in the world is capable of doing). To me, was i impressed with the result? NOT AT ALL!.. but in my years of watching athletics, regardless of which sport, the sign of 'great teams' are those that win when not playing well.. getting the result even when they dont have their best game on that given day, which is what Portugal did today.
     
  7. Tertuliano

    Tertuliano Member

    Jun 4, 2018
    True, don't get me wrong, i am happy at least Portugal squeezed out a draw. But like you, I get frustrated, talent everywhere on the pitch, great young players, etc ...and we play like this .like we are scared or clueless. Don't know what it will take to make Portugal believe they belong, just play to your ability. I can accept off games, snorefests, etc BUT that is not the case with Portugal, up against a good team or a bit of adversity and they become inept.

    And Italy had a couple more clear cut chances then the one you referenced, Patricio made a huge diving save early on or we would be down 1-0 within the first 15.

    One day this team going to put it all together.
     
  8. D_Jota

    D_Jota Red Card

    Wolverhampton
    Portugal
    Jul 30, 2018
    Still absolutely hilarious that 370 minutes of football has gone out the window because everyone can only focus on the last thing they saw and remember. 60 minutes has now over taken 370. Some people even decided to play arm chair psychologist and pretend they know the collective mentality of a team and nation. They beat France in France without Ronaldo to get their first major trophy, the mentality seems to have changed, but nope, it didn't change because what happen that night doesn't matter because today for 60 minutes they played poorly, and for God knows what reason, that's more important.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/...-negative-events-more-than-positive-ones.html

    A good read for those of you that may not understand how irrational you are being.
     
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  9. Tertuliano

    Tertuliano Member

    Jun 4, 2018

    Buddy, we have been watching Portugal just as long as you have. To pretend this team does not struggle to play up to its capability and handles adversity well is on you.
     
  10. D_Jota

    D_Jota Red Card

    Wolverhampton
    Portugal
    Jul 30, 2018
    Yeah, they really sh*t the bed today and gave Italy the chance to top the group....oh wait.

    They really screwed up that final against France without Ronaldo eh?

    Going into playoffs against Bosnia and Sweden is do or die, or in other words "adversity" that's why they fu*$ed those up.....oh wait.

    Please give me examples of this so called "weak mentality" or not playing to their capabilities? 2004 is the only true time they sh*t themselves and showed mental weakness.

    2 losses in 36 seems to me like playing to your potential, if the potential is that of a very good team.

    If you give me examples you must also show me how they differ from other top 10 teams.

    Maybe it's on me to not see this so called weakness, but I feel it's on you to not seem to understand that you are just a negative person.

    Why is the Portugal that played today more representative of a truth over the Portugal that played Croatia, Poland Scotland and Italy in the first leg? Where those lucky games and today was the truth. Was there a crazy amount of pressure? Obviously not, as a loss was not the end of anything.
     
  11. BatatasFritas

    BatatasFritas Member+

    Nov 29, 2004
    Toronto
    Club:
    FC Porto
    Well, I guess we see things differently. Your "I speak the truth" line reminded me of this.
     
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  12. D_Jota

    D_Jota Red Card

    Wolverhampton
    Portugal
    Jul 30, 2018
    He doesn't seem to understand the difference between opinion and truth. Everytime he says he's speaking the truth he's just stating his opinion.

    The line "I speak the truth" or "I say it like it is" must be my biggest pet peeve. Like when people watch someone like Sean Hannity and say "I like him because he says it like it is" they are really just saying "I like what he has to say because it reinforces my bias"

    @Tertuliano, you do not speak the truth, you just constantly repeat a opinion you believe to be true.
     
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  13. Jonathan Pimentel

    Aug 29, 2013
    Club:
    SL Benfica

    I have to tend to agree with tertuliano in the sense we play as a small nation when going up against 'big nations'.. Germany would never sit back against us and allow us to control the possession trying to hit us on the counter.. France didnt sit back against us in the Euro.. Spain doesnt sit back against us.. they all control the game v Portugal.. control the ball.. and we sit back hoping to hit on the counter..

    i am not worried about playing 'ugly' futebol, while winning and/or getting the desired result, aslong as that defensive mentality is being applied with confidence.

    For example, as i said, there was only one moment in the italy match where i really felt italy was going to/should have scored... but it wasnt representative of portugal playing a confident defensive game, it was on italy not knowing what to do moving forward given all the posession deep in the PT half they had. I felt it was only a matter of time untill Italy scored their goal.

    My point is, when you compare the starting 11 of Portugal to any team in the world.. position by position.. we are just as talented as any nation in any game/tournament.. yet, we play somewhat 'scared' and to respectful of the opponent.. when really... they should be just as scared of us.. and they arent..
     
  14. portugamerifinn

    portugamerifinn Member+

    Feb 22, 2005
    Bay Area / London
    Being able to shut things down to get or hold on to the result you need is not a "weak" mentality. I doubt Santos was expecting Italy's pressure to prevent Portugal from holding any possessionbefore halftime, but the team adjusted and the second half was a breeze and Portugal most likely to score, and that grew as the game went on.

    Sure, Portugal could've thrown caution to the wind since it still had the Poland match, but this was a tactically sound plan that got the necessary result. Italy, with all that possession, had three shots on goal. Playing wide open from the start likely would've been a disaster.

    I would've liked if someone in the midfield had pressured further up the pitch from the start like Joao Mario after he came on, though.
     
  15. portugamerifinn

    portugamerifinn Member+

    Feb 22, 2005
    Bay Area / London
    I guess you skipped Euro 2016. Portugal unluckily drew three matches against inferior competition in group play, but managed to come from behind three times following bullshit goals to get through. Nobody gave it a chance in hell, but it played the equivalent of five full matches in the knckout stages while allowing one early goal. It also lost its legend early in the final against France in France, yet won the match and tournament.

    That's the opposite of mentally weak.
     
  16. portugamerifinn

    portugamerifinn Member+

    Feb 22, 2005
    Bay Area / London
    Isn't it funny how the one person here who is certain that Portugal is mentally weak and handles adversity poorly, folding like a cheap suit in those sitations has pointed out zero instances to backup their grand proclamations?

    Also, on a note more specific to advancing to the UEFA Nations League Playoff, I find this argument against Portugal's "weak" approach especially, humorously ill-timed considering what happened to literally all the countries being cited as those Portugal should aspire to be: Spain, Germany and France.

    More specifically, Spain had six points through two matches with a +7 GD. It failed to advance as it allowed a bunch of goals...but I'm sure some people here sure found their meaningless goals in losing efforts exciting and "strong-minded!"
     
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  17. RedBullSeven

    RedBullSeven Member+

    Apr 28, 2012
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    #67 RedBullSeven, Nov 18, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
    Portugal is like a highly underrated MMA fighter who doesn’t believed in himself and is not respected by fighters in the top ten rankings, but in a match against one of them, he survives the early rounds and gains confidence while his opponent starts to lose confidence in the later rounds.
     
  18. portugamerifinn

    portugamerifinn Member+

    Feb 22, 2005
    Bay Area / London
    Belgium came out and scored two goals in the first 17 minutes...and then was down 3-2 by halftime anyway. Funny considering the discussion re: Portugal's approach and ultimately successful deployment of its tactics.
     
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  19. D_Jota

    D_Jota Red Card

    Wolverhampton
    Portugal
    Jul 30, 2018
    Thank you, I've already lost the patience to articulate what I'm trying to say, but you have done an excellent job of summing it up. I especially like pointing out the irony of comments in relation to what's happening to other "big" teams. There is some clear evidence out there in front of everyone's face that playing smart is better than pretty.

    But to sum it up, much like you I find these comments unusual to say the least. The evidence I've seen for the last couple of years has shown the exact opposite, a very mentally strong team that stays composed and can overcome controversy. Portugal has been the very definition of a mentally strong team. That's different from a team that takes a cautious approach and respects certain abilities of other teams.
     
  20. verde-rubro

    verde-rubro Member+

    C.S.Maritimo + Liverpool FC
    Portugal
    Jan 15, 2005
    LONDON
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    this
     
  21. HandofAbel

    HandofAbel Member

    Liverpool FC
    Portugal
    Jun 19, 2017
    eu estou aqui
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    I can’t believe that anyone could’ve have watched the contrast between the current crop of active Portuguese footballers and those of the past avs see thst todays generation has more confidence than ever.

    I’m sure that Portuguese players feel they can indeed have big tournaments success, now more than ever before.
     
  22. trebaruna

    trebaruna Member

    Jun 13, 2017
    Los Angeles
    I think this team is the exact opposite of having a "small team mentality". Portugal's players used to be very skilled but with the tendency to lose it when things weren't going as planned. The philosophy of play shifted from happy and flamboyant to a more cynical style of play. The first approach brought about great football but 0 titles, with the best performance being at the Euro 2000. The latter brought the exact opposite. Neutrals liked our team better when it brought them entertainment but didn't take any titles away from their teams. I prefer the exact opposite.
     
  23. BatatasFritas

    BatatasFritas Member+

    Nov 29, 2004
    Toronto
    Club:
    FC Porto
    Exactly. Portugal was very weak mentally and it showed when things didn't go our way or when there was excessive confidence.

    Remember that Abel Xavier hand ball? Our players were crying and throwing tantrums. Figo was even throwing the Jersey on the floor, players were suspended for a lengthy time. Baia looked beaten even before Zidane scored the PK.

    WC 2002 was another fiasco. Instead of playing our game, we got into hot head mode and lost.

    Euro 2004, the finals were in the bag.... then after Greece scored, Portugal choked and gave up.

    Even in that Uruguay game at the WC we could have tied and most of us thought we can do it. it didnt work out but they were mentally strong and didnt throw any tantrums. We lost with dignity.
     
  24. JoseEmidio

    JoseEmidio Member+

    Dec 6, 2009
    London
    Club:
    SL Benfica
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    There is nothing like this so called "winning mentality", people use different tactics and strategies conforming to abilities and circumstances. Portugal facing San Marino is different to Portugal facing Brasil. Plus Portugal is a small nation in Western Europe (look at population, GDP, per capita income, education, happiness and welfare reports...) inflating ego and expectations unrealistically is not going to get you results, only hard-intelligent work and luck is going to. Personally, I despise, the donkey alfa-male psychology route in sport and in general.
     
  25. FigoIsGod

    FigoIsGod Member

    Real Madrid
    Jan 16, 2005
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    We are a nation of just over 10 million people and we go toe-to-toe with every big footballing nation around the world. Italy has a population of over 60 million and can't lace up our boots.

    This inferiority complex some talk about is complete nonsense. We play how we have to in order to survive against countries with 5, 6, up to 10 times more the amount of players to choose from. We have world class talent at almost every position with our players featuring in big clubs around Europe.

    Sad mentality here. Be proud of what we have accomplished and how we are recognized as one of the footballing giants around the world. That's impressive.
     
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