Italian word of the day

Discussion in 'Italy' started by SueB, Oct 31, 2003.

  1. La China Poblana

    May 13, 2003
    Chicago
    R question

    So is the Italian "R" "rolled" like it is in Spanish? I just started studying Italian, and my instructor said that some Italians roll the "R" and some don't. Is it a regional thing? I was really excited to stumble on this thread, I'm sure it's going to help a lot.

    Lisa
     
  2. SueB

    SueB New Member

    Mar 23, 1999
    Waterbury, VT
    I think it probably is quite regional. I know my (southern) husband barely rolls his r's unless it's a double r. For instance, when he says "Ferrari" (my favorite Italian word, by the way ... :D), he really rolls those two r's, but hardly the second one. It's hard. Try it. Ferrari is also my 3-year-old son's favorite Italian word, (well, behind "ecco lo qua!" when his head pops out of the top of his shirt while he's getting dressed), and my husband has been working to get him to say it "right". "Not fuhRARi" (imitating my harsh pronunciation). "FEH-RRRRAH-ri." And it's really funny to hear my son try it.
     
  3. Sardinia

    Sardinia New Member

    Oct 1, 2002
    Sardinia, Italy, EU
    Yes, that's the correct pronounce.

    A double "r" is rolled, a single "r" is very very lightly rolled except when it is initial (but intensitiy differs from region to region, we sardinians roll hardly the initial "r", northener will roll it lightly, the correct pronounce is something in the middle I guess).
    Also it is rolled a bit more when a consonant follows.

    let's say this way (number of "r" being intensity).

    Carro (carrro) or Ferrari (ferrrari) - btw those from romagna roll almost every r.

    Rosso (rrosso) -
    Leopardo (Leoparrdo)
    Raro (rraro)

    Maybe...

    I got lost... :D

    Yes it differs... Bestianera help!

    p.s. One thing's for sure when someone say Amorrre is wrong.
     
  4. Sardinia

    Sardinia New Member

    Oct 1, 2002
    Sardinia, Italy, EU
    ah... "r" is rolled also when it follows a consonant as in tra, braccio, fratello.
     
  5. Mario

    Mario New Member

    Mar 11, 2000
    San Salvador, El Sal
    this thread is getting thick with all those pronunciation stuff, its all written for Pete's sake!
     
  6. bestianera

    bestianera New Member

    May 21, 2001
    Valvasone
    *shrug* it's simple: listen to an italian speaking. The prevailing vucabulary these days (and to a lesser extent also the accent) is lombard,so a foreigner learning italian should try to mimic that version if he/she wants to speak a "correct" italian
     
  7. Sardinia

    Sardinia New Member

    Oct 1, 2002
    Sardinia, Italy, EU
    something tells me the correct word is pronounciation not pronounce.
    I found also "pronounce" in the dictionary but there's an [obs] and (Milton).

    I guess I would be funny writing about soccer or else as Milton... :D
     
  8. Sardinia

    Sardinia New Member

    Oct 1, 2002
    Sardinia, Italy, EU
    Right. :D

    Tv side effects? O mia beeella Maduunnina...

    Anyway Pizzul was a good teacher.

    Also buying a dvd with italian version (not an italian movie) would be a good idea.
     
  9. La China Poblana

    May 13, 2003
    Chicago
    "R" help...

    I had no idea my little question would get such a response! Thanks everyone for all your help. I know to come back with any questions I have in the future.

    Lisa
     
  10. norfcath

    norfcath New Member

    Aug 17, 2000
    Philadelphia
    Prrrego, signorrina. Arrrrrivederrci!

    Come una giornata ben spese da` lieto dormir,
    Cosi` una vita ben spesa da`lieto morir. (Leonardo da Vinci)
    (Translation: Just as a day well spent leads to a happy[restful] sleep / So a life well spent leads to a happy[peaceful] death.)
     
  11. bestianera

    bestianera New Member

    May 21, 2001
    Valvasone
    alright,the weather is foul and I have no inclination to go shopping,so I might as well spend the afternoon teaching italian;your gain,my pleasure ;)

    we will focus on common pronounciation and grammar mistakes by italians or foreigners you should try as much as possible to avoid; I'll list what comes to mind...

    • c'ho,c'hai,c'abbiamo and so on: you'll hear many italians use this "intercalare" when speaking informally. "Ci" or "C'" is a pronoun that stands for "us", or "there","here",but is improperly added to the verb avere (to have),somehow like "got" for english. It's ok as long as you speak informally,but it's a bad form in formal speeches and flat out a mistake in the written language; in both situations you'll look very uneducated. So if your interest in italian is partially professional,make an effort not to take this bad habit,although you'll hear it again and again from your italian friends (especially in Rome) and will actually make you sound more "italian"
    • for mother-language english speakers only: two pronounciation mistakes that recur in 99% of those of you who try to speak italian,and that even after decades of practice.
      One was already pointed out by Sue and Mike: the -cio-,-gio- and such issue; I can't stand american and especially british commentators who still pronounce Baggio like "Bah-ji-oh",although I'm sure they've heard it right hundreds of times. Very unprofessional,and quite annoying. Points you immediately out as an anglosaxon.
      Note: there are exceptions,especially when you find the above formation at the end of words: farmacia,magia for instance. Is that what makes it confusing?
      The second is the pronounciation of the "-e" when it's the last letter of a word: if you're listening to an american/brit,it's INVARIABLY wrong.It's "eh",my friends. A pronounciation rule could not be simplier and yet...

      Conversely,you're forgiven if you can't manage the italian verbs; there aren't many italians who can anyway
     
  12. bestianera

    bestianera New Member

    May 21, 2001
    Valvasone
    a sample of friulano (not my dialect,although I was born and raised in Friuli and can understand it; the branches of my family stem from the provinces of Treviso,Modena and Bologna and I was taught to speak a neutral italian). They're comments on the use of friulan abroad by emigrants in their communities:

    Cuasi ducju a son d'acordu ch'al é importânt cuntinuâ a doprâ il furlan, solche cualchidun al pensa ch'a nol sêrf, ch'al é pi necessari il talian.

    Testimoniansis:

    "Cuânt ch'i si cjatavin tai clubs furlâns, i cecheravin furlan, i mangjavin polenta,i balavin, e lo stes i lu fai ades in famea. I ai sempri volût restâ talian. Al è importânt mantegni la propria lenga e cuânt ch'i si cjatavin tra furlâns, a si cecherava in furlan, ma tai stâs straniêrs a bisugna mantegni la lenga ch'a ei ulà".

    (ex e. 1946, Fransa; 1949, Argjentina; 1958, Stâs Unîs)

    "... le sempre util a parla il furlan come dutes li artri lenghes".

    (e. 1947, Fransa)

    "Si fevele il furlan in ciase si fevele il furlan sule ciase dai furlans, su la residense dal nestri Fogolar di Windsor il plui grant dal Canada. E’ importantisimo fevela il furlan per la nuova generasione che imparano a mantenire le nostre tradiscione e usanse".

    (e. 1949, Canadà)

    "O soi dal paré ca sedi une gran biele robe che di continuà a ciacarà il furlan in ciase nestre e di mantigni lis nestris usancis, ancje parcé che il governo local ca l'é al podé al ven incuintri ai diviers grups etnics e al multiculturalismo".

    (e. 1950, Canadà)

    "In ciasa i ciacaran pì di dut l'ingles e il rest furlan quant ca son li frutis in siro. Io e la femina i ciacarin mies ingles e mies furlan. Qualchi volta i ciacaran il talian. Li frutis a capisin ben (eccetto la picinina) tant che il talian che il furlan e lu ciacarin encia un ninin. Uchì, specie a Toronto i furlans a son ben organisas e unis cui club fogolars, e famee furlane. I sin orgoglios di essi talians e altretant di essi furlans".

    (e. 1954, Canadà)

    ""Tra om e femina i ciacaran furlan; i cridi encia par furlan; ma par i fioi l'italian i lu ciati pì necessari, sicome furlâns i sin pûs e l'italian a lu usin ducius. Il furlan a ei la nostra tradission, al fa plasé ciacaralu; i vin organisât una societât furlana, il baleto, la corâl furlana e ades i stin organisânt il teatro furlan".

    (e. 1955, Canadà)

    "Me fia ca studia lenghis all'Universitat di Toronto, a sta fadint la so tesi in “linguistica” propit sul dialet Furlan che in ciasa nostra a lé sempri stat ciacarat.

    Infatti, specialmente quant chi vevi i frus pissui, a mi confortava di podé rivolgimi a lor in tal gno amat dialet. Qualchi volta i vignevi cridada parseche a mi si diseva chi vares fat miei a insegnai l'Italian. Forsi a vevin reson ma al di di ué, culla nova importansa data al dialet Furlan, i pensi che forsi i no ai fat chel gran dam. Quant ca si é lontan da la so patria a si ha dibisugna di qualsiasi rimpin par sintisi come a ciasa, par colmà la distansa".

    (e. 1960, Canadà)

    "Il furlan lu cjacaravi cu la me amiga e qualchi volta a li riuniôns organisadis da l'associassion “Il fogolâr furlan” dulà ch'a si discuteva dai problemis e a si vigneva informâs di sé ch'a sussedeva in Italia e in particolâr in Friûl. A ei importânt cuntinuâ a fevelâlu, parsé ch'a si riva a sierâ la ferida dolorosa da la nostalgjia e dal amôr viêrs la propria patria".

    (ex e. 1963, Svissera)

    "Io e il me om i vin sempri fevelat il furlan e cusi a si fa qui parinc e paesans o qualsiasi cha si sa cha le furlan par nu ha le la pì biela roba dal mon esprimisi cu la propria lenga. I crot chal sei important continua cu la nostra tradizion del furlan e ades i capis che li tradizions furlanis tan le ver che a fesin tanciu program talian e parfin la Messa in furlan e a disi il veir chisti robis no li ai iududi in Italia forse l'ha a no sarà necessari ma chi a iudin tant a ni par di esi ulà cun vualtris".

    (e. 1963, Canadà)

    Emigrâ ué?

    Secônt i emigrâns:

    A un ch'al pensa di 'sî pal mônt, tancju a j disaressin: ch'a j conven restâ a cjasa o ch'al à da fâ un grun di sacrifissis; prima al à da. imparâ la lenga e una specialisassion e al à da vê tanta buna volontât.
    Secônt i parîncj:

    Tancju a no volin che un dai siei al partissi o solche se propit a i tocja.
    Cualchidun invessi al é d'acordu, parsé che un ch'al é 'sovin al à da lavorâ dolà ch'al cjata.
    Testimoniansis:

    "No, parsé che a mi displasarés tânt a jodilu partî, parsé che al pos cjatâ da fâ una vita normâl, ma s'al à sfurtuna al pos fâ una vita dura e sensa nissun risultât".

    (p. e. 1922, Argjentina; 1957, Argjentina; 1964, Canadà)

    "Il consiglio chi dares a un cal voul emigrà, i disares, stà a ciasa, stà tal ciò pais, sta talla tò patria”.

    (e. 1934, Fransa)

    "I disares ch'al fai ben a partî e che ducjus a dovaressin provâ a partî, e essi onêscj, lavoradours, fâsi un avignî e di no ‘sî a aventuris e diventâ magari un delincuênt".

    (ex e. 1946, Fransa; 1949, Argjentina; 1958, Stâs Unîs)

    “... cal si risigni a se cal poss rancontra".

    (e. 1947, Fransa)

    "S'a fos par fuarsa sì, ma no volenteir".

    (p.e. 1948, Argjentina; 1957, Venessuela)

    "Che pensi molto prima di partire perche non e facile adatarsi”.

    (e. 1949, Argjentina)

    "Se une persone a vul emigrà in Canada prime di dut a l'é mior ca impari la lenghe inglese par no ciatasi tes mes condizions e de grant part dai emigrans, cal vedi un mistir specializat e cal sedi zovin e plen di buine volontat di lavorà, se no a le mior cal resti in Italie".

    (e. 1950, Canadà)

    "A un paesan cal sta par emigrà, io i dis: Parta cun te la to buna volontat da lavorà, la to religion, e lorgolio da essi furlan, ti iodaras che duciu a ti volin ben e ti pos zi cul ciaf alt".

    (e. 1953, Olanda)
     
  13. bestianera

    bestianera New Member

    May 21, 2001
    Valvasone
    I'll translate a bit:

    Quando ci ritrovavamo nei club friulani,parlavamo friulano,mangiavamo polenta,ballavamo, e lo stesso facciamo adesso in famiglia. Abbiamo sempre voluto rimanere italiani. E' importante mantenere la propria lingua e quando ci incontravamo tra friulani,si parlava friulano,ma ma in un paese straniero bisogna mantenere la lingua del posto

    In casa parliamo soprattutto inglese,altrimenti friulano quando sono presenti anche i figli. Io e mia moglie parliamo mezzo inglese e mezzo friulano (you canadians,ever heard the word "storo",for instance :D ). Qualche volta parliamo italiano. I figli capiscono bene (eccetto la più piccola) sia l'italiano che il friulano e lo parlano anche un po'. Qui,specialmente a Toronto i friulani sono ben organizzati e uniti dai club fogolars (fogolar= fireplace),e dalle famiglie friulane. Siamo orgogliosi di essere italiani e altrettanto di essere friulani

    not quite intuitive,is it? ;)
     
  14. Treetaliano

    Treetaliano Member

    Jun 29, 2002
    San Diego
    my italian is pretty damn good...but you sir, have lost me.

    Let's try something a little more simple shall we? :D
     
  15. Sardinia

    Sardinia New Member

    Oct 1, 2002
    Sardinia, Italy, EU
  16. bestianera

    bestianera New Member

    May 21, 2001
    Valvasone
    italian words gone bad in the mouth of americans

    "confetti" are NOT those tiny colored paper cuts thrown at parades in the USA,or at Carnival in Italy. Those are called "coriandoli",and are the nemesis of italian janitors :D
    "confetti" are candies made of almonds coated with sugar and aromas,with which the bride and groom present their guests at the marriage,inside a small porcelain vase. The ultimate fruitors are the kids attending the ceremony or waiting at home...

    "Bologna" is a city,not a salami (another mangled word: the original is "salume" in general,or "salame" in particular); the right name for that particular salume is "mortadella",either in slices or as the emilians favour,in little cubes (I prefer it in slices though)

    "Paparazzi was a real photographer,known personally by Fellini and cited in his film "La dolce vita"; hence the universal meaning of sneaking photographer of celebrities. The italians now call those singularly paparazzo,which is probably a stretch

    btw,ricotta is NOT a cheese
     
  17. kotzunder

    kotzunder New Member

    Aug 21, 2003
    i think that they didnt want to learn italian for real, just to have fun with some word, this has become like a school lesson, and nobody likes school
     
  18. Mario

    Mario New Member

    Mar 11, 2000
    San Salvador, El Sal
    speak for yourself, I enjoy this classes, although I admit it was a long class! :)

    BTW if Riccotta is not a cheese then que cosa?
     
  19. kotzunder

    kotzunder New Member

    Aug 21, 2003
    alright then
    there no problem with me about it
     
  20. bestianera

    bestianera New Member

    May 21, 2001
    Valvasone
    looks like kotzunder's opinion is the prevailing one: I killed the thread! :p

    Mario,ricotta is the product obtained by cooking again - as its name suggests - what's left from the bowl from which the cheese mold was removed. The difference is that there's no fat left,only proteins and calcium; that makes ricotta the ideal nutrient for whom has a taste for cheese/dairies but high LDL/cholesterol levels. Even better for those who should take a high daily income of calcium to fight osteoporosis (and whose arteries are often already clogged),or want reduce body weight.

    Aside from all this,ricotta is delicious ;). I love it as a spaghetti sauce,emulsified in olive oil and prezzemolo (parsley),and at breakfast on bread with jam or honey. mmmmmmmh!
     
  21. Mario

    Mario New Member

    Mar 11, 2000
    San Salvador, El Sal
    ricotta is delicious!
     
  22. SueB

    SueB New Member

    Mar 23, 1999
    Waterbury, VT
    Ricotta. I like it IN stuff like manicotti and stuffed shells, but I can't eat it straight on a piece of bread like my husband enjoys it.

    Nah, you didn't kill the thread, bestianera, my workload increase did. :(
     
  23. NER_MCFC

    NER_MCFC Member

    May 23, 2001
    Cambridge, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One of my favorite Italian words is 'svirgolata'. Don't bother going to your dictionary, unless it includes sports terms. Derived from 'virgola' (comma), it's sometimes used by announcers when a player shanks the ball.

    Here's a question for you native speakers: When the announcers on RAI International are talking about a missed shot, they will use a phrase that ends (I forget the verb) with 'lo specchio della porta'. It's obvious from context what they mean, but I've wondered about where this term comes from.
     
  24. Mario

    Mario New Member

    Mar 11, 2000
    San Salvador, El Sal
    I already knew about Ricotta ( I still think it qualifies as cheese! :p) and its delicious!
     
  25. norfcath

    norfcath New Member

    Aug 17, 2000
    Philadelphia
    "Specchio" is a looking glass, mirror. "Porta" of course is a door. This is obviously an idiomatic expression which literally translates as "the door's mirror," "the mirror on the door." Anybody have any guess as to why it pertains to a missed shot? Sorry, I haven't seen Italy since 1958.
     

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