Uh no it wasn't. Anyway, quite blaming Israel for all that is wrong there, i am curious who has worse living conditions, those in the West Bank, or those in internment camps in Lebanon and Syria?
But that is the problem, one side wants to deny the Jews that they have any claim to the land. But lets move forward to modern times. Start with 48 and the plan to partition the land into Israel and Palestine. There is a reason Palestine wasn't created and it had nothing to do with any action on Israel's part. The people who want a palestine need to look at their fellow muslims and arab brothers and ask them why they stole their land, and quit blaming Israel for everything.
That's where you're wrong, the Palestinians have not denied any jewish claims to the land. Quite the contrary, Muslims, Jews, Christians lived happily together in Palestine, pre-Zionism. Did you take a look at the partition plan? The Arabs haven't stolen any land from the Palestinians, its the Israelis that did.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20091230/wl_time/08599195048700 I don't know if she really is the key to his release.
Do you have a map that shows this land and how it was divided between the various parties? I'm genuinely curious (and maybe it would at least end this part of the debate so we could move on).
It's insane for Israel to keep releasing these animals for one soldier - this will provoke more kidnapping in the future. I am sureprised to Israel's intelligence and Special Ops are either unwilling or unable to just rescue him. It's been so long they must know where he is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf3.html It's all in black and white.
Agreed. Given Israel's strong backbone on just about every other issue in the conflict, it really surprises me every time they agree to free a whole bunch of (often dangerous) prisoners in exchange for one or two hostages. Seems so counterproductive. Looking at those maps, it seems that the vast bulk of the then intended Palestinian state is now within the borders of Israel. Where is all the land that the surrounding Arab states stole? How did Israel end up with it's current borders? (putting gaza and the west bank aside for now)
Actually, that's where you're wrong. Gaza, which is south of Israel and borders Egypt was taken by Egypt in 48 until 67, same with WB, when Israel captured it and Jerusalem from Jordan during that war. The current borders were set through numerous wars of 48, 67, 73 that included WB, Gaza, Golan Heights. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_war It was a war where newly formed Israel was attacked by 6 armies, trying to annihilate it, so any land which was captured was in a defensive war. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War There is A LOT of information which I cannot explain in one post, but if you do the research you will find time and time again, Israel did not illegally capture lands, it was done through warfare, for survival, and moreover, Israel gave back lands it captured for peace and in most cases, it backfired.
No they lived under the oppression of the Ottoman Empire. Get the facts right. Israel did not steal any land, the land they have now was taken after they were attacked time and again. I don't know why you insist on ignoring what actually happened. A simple Google search bears out what I am saying. Plus you seem to want to ignore how the Pali's are treated in their arab brothers nations. Compare those internment camps to the west bank. who has it worse?
You can't compare refugee camps and occupied land, they are two different things. Additionally the whole propaganda for 1967 is completely false, quite the contrary the Arab nations had to prepare as the Israelis were going to attack and occupy the rest of Palestine.
The funny thing is there are so many facts, myths, rumors, and tales from each side, that the actual truth is almost impossible to derive. Both sides have their side of the story and their own truths, and the rest of the world just chooses which particular version they like to believe. Past has to become irrelevant for the future to happen. It doesn't matter now if it was the Israelis who wanted to attack its Arab neighbors or vice verse. Look at the situation now and work with what you got. Trying to look in the past to find a solution for the future will never work, hence I don't think the whole going back to the 1967 borders makes any sense, nor the right of return. The 2 governments should sit down, open the current map and work with the existing reality.
The problem with that is, israel is engaged in a policy of ensuring that the "existing reality" is in fact annexation of land, making future negotiations more difficult. That is why the failure to freeze settlement expansion is proving so problematic. I remember arguing with you a lot on this topic Yasik, but i think we both know that painful concessions have to be made by both sides, and neither side really knows what a concession actually is, not yet anyway. In the meantime though, while we wait for the dealmakers, it is the Palestinians who suffer the consequences, which is why I am so pro-Palestinian.
Whose fault is that? And Israelis have made plenty of concessions, WTF do you call kicking 10,000+ Israelis form their homes - a Ramadan present?! Palestinians have made 0% effort - violence has not stopped, but has only been postponed, unless you count Arafat's second intifada as a concession to Camp David's accords. No terrorist group has been dealt with, propaganda and education has been absolutely frightful for the future of Palestinian kids, hate is spreading, Hamas is getting stronger and Abbas/Fatah is corrupt as it can be.
Would the IDF not expect return fire, when one of its helicopters is flying over Gaza, firing missiles? I'd be surprised if there were not more firepower from the street, should the same thing happen in my neighborhood. More accurate, too. You're not familiar with the Hamas benefits package? It's almost European! Six weeks annual vacation, all major Islamic holidays, sick leave, full medical, even eyeglass & dental! In lieu of pension, a full burial service, plus 72 virgins await all employees in the afterlife.
Yes, Palestinians are suffering more and without going into the reasons why, this is exactly why I think it is the Palestinians who will have to make the more painful concessions in the beginning. By the beginning, I mean the beginning of an actual process towards an actual peace. I know it sounds unfair, but precisely because Israel is better off and are stronger at the moment that they have less motivation to make any more drastic moves after the Gaza withdrawal.
Do you think everyone firing at the helicopter is an offical Hamas fighter in mufti? Or is it possible that whoever put the video online simply claims that they all are. From someone who states his location as "my gun safe"? Would you not fire back at anyone attacking you?
Who cares, that was not the point. Point was it's impossible to tell who is a civilian and who is a Hamas fighter. It's irrelevant whether there should be more people firing or not. It's not that hard Jake, really. And if you are firing at a helicopter, then I don't think it matters if you belong to Hamas or not, you're putting yourself at risk willfully.
Please try not to be so condescending. I know about the 6 Day War. And About the Gaza Strip, West Bank and Golan Heights. I'm not a scholar on the history of the Middle East, but I'm not a moron either. I was just asking about this map: Based on the wiki article: So after the 1948 war, Israel controlled the land partitioned to them by Resolution 181. In addition they took a whole bunch of the land allocated to an Arab state. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in these areas became refugees as a result. The rest (GS and part of the WB) was taken/stolen/held/whatever by Egypt and Jordan respectively. After '67 (which is entirely the fault of the Arab states, ZIAD. Come on...), Israel took control of GZ, the rest of the WB, and the GH (who owned the GH before '67? Was it part of the proposed Palestinian state or part of Syria?). As far as I can tell (from looking at the map... here, my knowledge of the current situation fails), no Arab country currently possesses any land whatsoever that was designated for a Palestinian state by Resolution 181. Is that not the case?
Ah, but that IS the point. Besides the fact that there was no sign of human shields in the video. An IDF helicopter is flying over a neighborhood, firing missiles. The people in the street are FIRING BACK. There might not be AK-47s in my neighborhood, but there are undoubtedly enough semi-automatic rifles & people trained & willing to use them.
I was not condescending, merely pointing out that there is much information out there. GH belonged to Syria, but after 73, it was recaptured by Israelis and they have it now, more or less, as a security buffer with Syria. Look, the easiest way to put it is this - the only land Israel "got," which was not was not part of the partition plan was the result of a defensive war against multiple Arab entities, in 67 and 73 in particular. Here's an article from Daniel Pipes, he is pro-Israel, and is biased, so take it for what it is, but the facts remain facts and the law remains the law, so here are some key points: http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/129811 The main point again is that this is complicated, but the land that Israel has now was not annexed illegally.
Good for these people, they are defending themselves, it's a war, right... However, they are just as much of a target now as those on whom Apaches are firing.