News: Israel and Palestine NEWS thread, free of existential and intractable debates

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by rslfanboy, Oct 12, 2023.

  1. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    This thread is to keep up with actual events happening, and not for discussing :
    • the foundation of Israel as a Jewish homeland,
    • the 2 state solution,
    • who is to blame for what,
    • the right of either group to exist, and
    • the fact that Hamas is a BAD ACTOR.
    Think of it like a transfer tracking thread VS transfer rumors & discussion thread.

    Let's see if this works @American Brummie
     
  2. song219

    song219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 5, 2004
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Vanuatu
    Good luck.
     
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  3. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    From Charlie15:

    An other good piece....

    Nicholas Kristof
    By Nicholas Kristof
    Opinion Columnist

    The terror attacks by Hamas against civilians who were in their homes and dancing at a concert are being called Israel’s Sept. 11, and that’s a fair comparison.

    Let’s hope that Israel responds to this outrage more wisely than we in the United States did to the attack on our country.

    There’s a lot of loose talk about eliminating Hamas, and Hamas deserves it. As a journalist who has traveled repeatedly to Gaza, I’m appalled by the sympathy that some Americans and Europeans have shown for a misogynist and repressive terror organization like Hamas. If you care about human rights, you want to see Hamas eliminated.

    Yet dismantling terrorist organizations can be harder than it looks and can raise troubling moral questions about collateral damage. The Taliban also deserved elimination, yet in the end it was the United States that was eliminated from Afghanistan. I worry that Israel may charge into Gaza with a ground invasion as thoughtlessly as we plowed into Iraq.

    Neal Keny-Guyer, a former chief executive of Mercy Corps, knows Gaza well and thinks it is possible for Israel to kill or capture most Hamas leaders. “But at what cost to civilian lives?” he asked me. He noted that street fighting might well spill over into an uprising in the West Bank and a war on the Lebanon border as well.

    Gaza is half the size of New York City and home to some 2.2 million people, almost half of whom are children. Global sympathies are overwhelmingly with Israel in the aftermath of the terror attacks, as they should be, but will that be sustained if a ground invasion leads to thousands of Gazan children dying in house-to-house fighting?

    Israelis grieving their dead may not care. The Israeli journalist Haviv Rettig Gur argues that the country has undergone a tectonic shift and is now determined to do what it takes, whatever the cost.

    “A safe Israel can spend much time and resources worrying about the humanitarian fallout from a Gaza ground war; a more vulnerable Israel cannot,” he wrote in The Times of Israel on Sunday. Israeli officials have struck a similar tone.

    “We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly,” said the Israeli defense minister, Yoav Gallant. Another official was quoted as saying that Gaza would be turned into “a city of tents.”

    Rabbi Jonathan Jaffe in Chappaqua, N.Y., issued an open letter noting that Jews have been traumatized by the terror attacks. “Now, Israel will act like any other country would if it was invaded by a bloodthirsty neighbor and its citizens murdered, tortured, kidnapped and mutilated,” he wrote. “And when the world inevitably protests the Jewish use of force, we won’t care.”

    I empathize with that trauma and anger. Who can watch the video of Shani Louk, a 22-year-old woman kidnapped by Hamas and paraded half-naked and badly injured in Gaza, and not feel rage?

    Yet this mood reminds me of the aftermath of Sept. 11 in the United States, when we sailed into trouble. I wrote column after column warning of the risks of invading Iraq, but Americans brimmed with pain, confidence and resolve. What we needed was a companion dose of humility.

    The Middle East is an ongoing education in such humility. Israel originally helped nurture Hamas in Gaza because it thought religious leaders would hang out in the mosque and be less dangerous than nationalist ones. Likewise, Israel’s invasion of Lebanon in 1982 inadvertently laid the seeds for Hezbollah on the northern border.

    There’s a reason that four successive Israeli prime ministers have chosen not to invade and occupy Gaza. Urban combat is a nightmare, whether for Americans in Falluja or Russians in Grozny, and civilian casualties are often enormous. That’s particularly true in a place like Gaza, where civilians cannot flee.

    If we owe a moral responsibility to Israeli children, then we owe the same moral responsibility to Palestinian children. Their lives have equal weight. If you care about human life only in Israel or only in Gaza, then you don’t actually care about human life.

    What that means in practice is difficult to navigate. Israel has a right to respond, and in war, civilians inevitably suffer.

    “Today I woke up to see my neighborhood completely wiped off, including the building where I have my apartment,” Wafa Ulliyan, a Gazan aid worker who immigrated to Canada a few years ago, told me. “It became ashes.”

    Ulliyan said she doesn’t want to see either Israelis or Palestinians targeted but just wants two states to live in peace. I’ve met plenty of people like her in Gaza — although of course there are also some who celebrate when rockets targeting Israel go off.

    I flinch when I hear the defense minister refer to Palestinians as animals. Hamas dehumanized Israelis, and we must not dehumanize innocent people in Gaza.

    There will be no optimal solution in Gaza, any more than there was in Afghanistan or Iraq. We are fated to inhabit a world with more problems than solutions, and it’s fair to feel conflicted about next steps. Israel will face hard choices in the coming weeks; its challenge will be to respond to war crimes without committing war crimes.

    We don’t want to replicate in Gaza the approach reportedly expressed by an American Army major in Vietnam in 1968: “It became necessary to destroy the town to save it.”

    The counsel we Americans should offer Israel is threefold and admittedly difficult to follow. First, Israel has right on its side when it goes after its assailants. Second, urban combat has a poor record in achieving its goals — and a considerable history of horrendous casualties. Third, if your moral compass is attuned to the suffering of only one side, your compass is broken, and so is your humanity.
     
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  4. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    And in response, there's another NYT article with Israel Ziv, a retired Israeli General.

    He seems like a pretty sympathetic character, but then you get this:
    Over 300,000 Palestinians are homeless as of yesterday, and they are all without power, water, etc....
     
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  5. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    Israel saying they won't turn on water, electricity, or provide fuel until hostages are released.
    AP News
     
  6. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    We can't have nice things
     
  7. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Unlike the US where despicable people like Tim Scott claimed Biden had blood on his hands, it appears the people of Israel blame Bibi for this failure

     
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  8. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    OK. Feel free to discuss the blaming of CURRENT political figures
     
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  9. Funkfoot

    Funkfoot Member+

    May 18, 2002
    New Orleans, LA
    It does make one wonder why, 18 years after Israel withdrew from Gaza ("land for peace" :rolleyes:), Gaza still gets over 90% of its electricity from Israel. Why are people who want self rule relying on their enemy for their critical infrastructure? Not being sarcastic, here. Just seems really weird.
     
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  10. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    Because they don't have a choice.
     
  11. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    Iran now saber rattling over retaliation.
    apnews
     
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  12. Umar

    Umar Member+

    Sep 13, 2005
    One step ahead
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Palestine
    Prisoners get all of their food, lodging, clothing etc from their jailers.

    Gaza has been under a siege by israel and Egypt by land, air and sea since 2007.
     
  13. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-military-navy-carrier-e648c53dc53a46e2e12950784ea5e8d2

    The US build up in recent days:


    One of the most visible examples of the U.S. response was the announcement Sunday by the Pentagon to redirect the Gerald R. Ford carrier strike group to sail toward Israel. The carrier had just completed an exercise with the Italian Navy when the ship and its crew of about 5,000 were ordered to quickly sail to the Eastern Mediterranean.

    The carrier provides a host of options. It’s a primary command and control operations center and can conduct information warfare. It can launch and recover E2-Hawkeye surveillance planes, recognized by their 24-foot (7-meter) diameter disc-shaped radar. The planes provide early warnings on missile launches, conduct surveillance and manage the airspace, detecting not only enemy aircraft but also directing U.S. movements.

    The Ford carries F-18 fighter jets that could fly intercepts or strike targets. The carrier also has significant capabilities for humanitarian work, including an onboard hospital with an ICU and emergency room and about 40 medics, surgeons and doctors. It sails with helicopters that can be used to airlift critical supplies in or victims out.

    On Friday, the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower carrier strike group will leave its homeport of Norfolk, Virginia, and sail for the Mediterranean, potentially doubling the Navy’s Israel response.. . . ​


    It's the Daily Mail, but Marines are also on the move.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12621723/marines-hamas-israel-special-hostages.html


    US special forces were reported to be on their way to the Israeli war zone last night as America’s military build-up gathered strength.

    The 2,400 fighters of the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit quietly peeled away from their planned military exercise in Kuwait as the US stands by for a possible rescue attempt of more than 150 hostages kidnapped by Hamas.​

     
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  14. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    Oh dear.


    Israel tells UN to evacuate the northern Gaza Strip within 24 hours

    From CNN's Caitlin Hu

    United Nations team leaders in Gaza on Thursday were informed by their liaison officers in the Israeli military that the entire population north of Wadi Gaza should evacuate to southern Gaza within 24 hours, according to Stephane Dujarric the spokesperson for the UN secretary general.

    Israel gave the message to the UN team in Gaza at just before midnight local time on Thursday, the UN said.

    "This amounts to approximately 1.1 million people. The same order applied to all UN staff and those sheltered in UN facilities — including schools, health centres and clinics," the UN statement said. "The United Nations considers it impossible for such a movement to take place without devastating humanitarian consequences."

    The UN's statement added: "The United Nations strongly appeals for any such order, if confirmed, to be rescinded avoiding what could transform what is already a tragedy into a calamitous situation."
     
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  15. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I found it laughable when NPR, a few days ago, had someone on who assured the listeners that the US didn't send this air craft carrier group to actually engage in anything, but rather only as a "deterrent". Well, that's obviously a load of horseshit. It's a deterrent only if no one reacts differently than you want them to. As soon as they react in a manner that you're "not ok with" then the situation changes, dunnit?
     
  16. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    That's the very definition of deterrent ... :whistling:
     
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  17. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The UN has already lost aid workers in the last few days, surprised the missions haven't already left.
     
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  18. Quakes05

    Quakes05 Member+

    Oct 1, 2005
    birthplace of MLS
    unlikely, of course, but with the humanitarian crisis that's about to unfold there, sure would be nice if they could use those ships to assist injured Palestinians and to deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza. medical facilities in the area are already completely overrun and unable to treat all the injured and dying. food and water are going to be in very short supply.
     
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  19. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Thank you sir!
     
  20. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And they may yet. Israel isn't going to want cameras showing them leaving women and children dying in the streets, so there will almost certainly be a humanitarian follow-up.
     
  21. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Obrien has been worrying that we are seeing the broadening out of warfare as an escalation that many feared.

    Not that this war is directly caused by anything in Ukraine, but rather this is the direction of travel for various actors beyond Russia - a normalisation of warfare, atrocity etc
     
  22. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I've only seen this on CNN so far but they've reported that Hamas trained this operation in 6 sites over the Gaza strip. I would say if there was ever a very legit military target for Israel to attack with smart rockets and drones it would have been these.

    The footage is from the last two years, but it is chillingly prescient. In a December 2022 video, Hamas fighters can be seen flooding a training area, shooting rockets and capturing pretend prisoners as they surround mock Israeli buildings.

    The camp, CNN analysis shows, had just been constructed, and was very close to Erez Crossing, the pedestrian passageway between Gaza and Israel that Hamas fighters ultimately breached last weekend in a bloody attack which killed over 1,200 people in Israel.

    Another video taken more than a year ago, shows Hamas fighters practicing take-offs, landings and assaults with paragliders – the same unusual assault mode that Hamas deployed with lethal effect in the same Oct. 7 attack.


    https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/hamas-training-site-gaza-israel-intl/index.html
     
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  23. Funkfoot

    Funkfoot Member+

    May 18, 2002
    New Orleans, LA
    That possibility occurred to me, of course. But do you have a link to show this is the case, or are you just speculating here?

    Why not run power lines from Egypt? Why are none of their Arab "brothers" helping out? If they can afford to buy EPL teams, give $2 billion to Jared Kushner, etc., why not build a power plant? I think part of the problem is that nobody is really in charge in Gaza.
     
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  24. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    CNN showing Israeli shelling going on near the south Lebanon border.
     
  25. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    If this is true, that would kinda suggest that the Gaza is a Prison metaphor might be a bit... less than accurate.
     

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