I think Zidane's importance during the various qualifiying campaigns that France played in his time is underrated because it was not as well publicized. A lot of his detractors take a dig at him for having played for a stacked French team, but they do not mention that said stacked team even had issues in qualification when he was not present. Otherwise I do agree that Zidane was even more important during the finals of tournaments and his numbers reflect that, as I have already mentioned in an earlier post. I don't think he was perfect, as I definitely think that he could have shown more leadership and been more forceful in asking for the ball and asking for responsibilities in that French team when he was at his prime. Yet, he achieved more than any other footballer internationally, when looking at the correct context i.e. no peak tournament + team and individual awards. Agree btw that a lot of people don't know what they are talking about when they bring him up and bash him, but that is the reason why I feel like correcting them from time to time. This is a great point that you bring up regarding Anelka. It would definitely have been interesting to see more of him playing with Zidane later, especially in the 03-04 period.
Yes there are people that idolize Zidane like he's the Second Coming, carried France to the WC2006 final and was the most important piece of the puzzle at Real Madrid. Of course that's all myth, and yet he was still a world class player and his legacy doesn't just depend on the two headers in the 1998 final. France didn't do too well without Zidane did they? They lacked a decisive playmaker in 2008 and beyond and I do believe it's because Zidane was gone. The three tournaments after Zidane (2008, 2010, 2012) the French team was also plagued by incidents from pricks such as Anelka, Nasri, Evra, and Ribery (who bullied Zidane's replacement away..). How would it have looked with Zidane's leadership? Zidane did have an aura about him, he was a leader. We can't quantify that with stats and yet it is there. France relied on him, even if we were to say the defenders and Vieira were more important. Zidane was expected to create openings, and when he retired IMO it showed even more and France lost its identity. That's part speculation but it's what I recall from memory. Yes, he is overrated by some. This is also due to player marketing that occurred in the late 90s and early 2000s with Zidane, Ronaldo9, Beckham, Owen, and some others. Lots of Real Madrid players as RM was one of the first teams to truly capitalize on the globalisation of the game and the Asian market, together with Manchester United. The World Cup 2002 was the height of that sentiment. They were hyped tremendously (justified or unjustified) and there were loads of commercials back then produced by both Nike and Adidas. If you look past all of that then Zidane is still a great player. Not the best. Whether he was among the top 3 or top 5 of his era is a matter of debate. He wasn't too consistent at club level, but then we have to remember that many players back then weren't as consistent as Messi and CR7 have been for so many years. That's probably also due to further professionalization, nutrition, improved fitness, etc. I don't remember too many great players from that era who remained consistent world class for even 5 years. There is much hype around Zidane, true, but there is also plenty of judgement of past players in today's context. Stats can be used to give false impressions that past great players were less good than today's good players. Stats occur in a context and require interpretation and people can be creative with their narratives.
Zidane had fatigue issues owing to a health condition. So he wasn't always capable of playing his best football on a consistent basis. It has to said he was a player who picked his moments and conditioned himself to perform when it counted most. He might not have scored a thousand goals like Cristiano, but Zidane shares the record for the most goals in a World Cup final. He was a player for the big occasions whose style and elegance separated him from his peers. If anything, modern football misses players of his quality. Today, athleticism is prized over everything else. It means more to be a great athlete in the modern game and to exploit space that already exists on the transition than to be a player like Zidane who can slow the game down and create space where there is none. I would argue he's underrated by today's standards, not overrated. Speaking towards the comment above, it wasn't just after his time did France struggle. Even before he came onto the scene France were a mess. They had great players too. Cantona and Ginola. These were outstanding players who lit up England. Papin was a real force at Marseilles on the European stage, leading OM to victory in 1993. Yet they failed to qualify for major tournaments in 1988, 1990, and 1994. At the Euros in 1992, they qualified but failed to win any games. And they had good managers. Michel (RIP) won gold at the Olympics and took France to third place at the 1986 World Cup. Platini and Houllier were also very good managers, but struggled to get the best of their players when it counted. What Zidane did was bring composure and belief to France. You can't quantify that in stats. So important was he that I don't even think France would have qualified for the 2006 World Cup if Zidane didn't come out of his retirement. At the 2002 World Cup, such was France' desperation and reliance on Zidane that they rushed him back to the field still injured and practically on one leg. The quality of his ability on the ball is equally immeasurable. He did things no one learns or gets taught. No one practices shooting a volley after the ball is deflected and drops out of the sky 20-30 feet over your head with the composure to do it in a Champions League final. No one pirouettes the ball off their chest after receiving a 60-70 yard pass like he did against Portugal at Euro 2000 and then picks out a brilliant pass that should have won the game had his teammate kept his footing. These were spontaneous bits of play. These were not skills he dreamed up and practiced on the training ground hoping to perform them in games. These were inspired moments that simply came to him. They're a testament to his rare natural ability and skilled mastery of the ball.
I can only imagine how Twitter would react to his 98/99 season. Given the amount of flak Ozil gets for only creating and not scoring enough goals (he averages like 4-6 goals a season), how would World Cup and Ballon D'or winner who only score two goals in the entire league campaign while his team finishes 7th (a single additional winning goal by Zidane would see Juventus finish in top 4) be viewed by the Twittersphere?
He was i injured for part of it(the first semester i think) Zidane (deservedly)didn't actually fare so well in the 1999 ballon dor Can you imagine andres iniesta finished 2nd in the 2010 ballon dor? 1 goal in 42 appearances during 2009/10(all club competitions) Zidane was overhyped but definitely not the most overrated post modern era player A midfielder with 150 goals+220~ assists is a generational talent https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinedine_Zidane He was also Not the primary set piece maker on his teams(only for the NT and Bordeaux i think) Is it hard to imagine had he been the primary set piece taker for juventus and Madrid he couldve inflated his tally to 200 career goals+250 assists as a CM? This was before the era of superteams also(unlike iniesta zizous teams never scored upwards of 150+ goals season in season out)
Upon further revision i think Roberto Baggio is more deserving of this moniker(most overrated post modern era player) Just ask 100 different guys here if someone like Neymar jr is better and at least 90 would say no And at least 70 would say your crazy Baggio.....cmon Neymar is nowhere near him But why Baggios legacy is built upon a nice solo goal against Czechoslovakia in 90 4 ko goals against Bulgaria,Spain and Nigeria in 94 And 1 iconic performance in the UEFA cup 92/93(stellar performances vs PSG and Dortmund 5 for example) Ok also a few nice solo goals in early 90s serie A which was unusual for that time(van basten and maradona couldn't score those types of goals vs serie A defences) But Was he really a much better creator as the other FWs of his time like stoichkov and eric cantona? A better finisher than del piero? The bottom line is he won 0 international trophies as a main protagonist 0 league titles as a main protagonist 0 European cups as a main protagonist even if we say the uefa cup was abit(much?) stronger in those days The above is enough for Baggio to be overhyped as top 25 all timer While Neymar has not only been one of the top scorers,passers and dribblers in ligue 1 for 3 years Actually also one the top creators/dribblers in the world He also top scored in a winning CL campaign for Barcelona has been a consistent top 5 player in the world (when hes fit) since 2015 And has a trophy cabinet that befits his talent Some myths Particularly those ones regarding pre moderm era players will never die Zidane is overhyped only when he finds his way into lists as these No di Stefano No Cruyff No eusebio But compared to andres 'mirage' iniesta Ryan 'consistent' giggs And Ronaldinho 'flash in the pan' gaucho He is a giant of epic proportions
I guess how overrated he is is quite subjective. I don't think there's any argument that he is a generational talent. I think what bothers people, me included, is when you see discussions around the greatest players of all time, the mainstream has him right up there among the top 10, or top 20 at worst.
Not that I disagree with your general point, but these stats are wrong. He didn't have 50 league assists for Real Madrid. OPTA credits him with 30, and fbref with 37. Yes, but the Ozil fan brigade actually - right or wrong - claims that he creates a lot, while for Zidane that was never claimed. The biggest Zidane fans never said he produced an enormous amount - just often only on the right moments and for winning teams (= not a liability). Most goals and assists of attacking midfielders since 1994/95 (club football only): Ronaldinho - 349 Mesut Özil - 302Wesley Sneijder - 294Kaka - 291Van der Vaart - 291D. Silva - 279Juan Mata - 277 pic.twitter.com/pLvBHMxd0L— MÖS (@MesutOzilStats) February 18, 2020
Damn, there's a twitter called MesutOzilStats Personally, I've always preferred Fabregas to Ozil. Still genuinely believe that if Arsenal was in a better shape, Fabregas would easily be known as one of the best in his generation.
Ronaldinho (this includes 22 penalties): 103 - Ronaldinho is the third Brazilian player with the most goals+assists in La Liga in the 21st century (69 goals and 34 assists), after Dani Alves (25 and 101) and Neymar (68 and 38). Smile. pic.twitter.com/OSmUkFeJmk— OptaJose (@OptaJose) January 17, 2018 Was a pretty productive midfielder indeed: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/miscellaneous-premier-league-stats.2079200/page-2#post-37785741 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/miscellaneous-premier-league-stats.2079200/page-2#post-38102099 He also suffers maybe from starting very early and declining early (other than a very good first half of 2014-15).
Yeah, his decline was very unfortunate. Given the right circumstances, he could have reached a much higher peak, and also extended his peak a lot further.
One of the biggest travesties of all time is how Maradona is put forward by the powers that be and the global corporate latin media as the biggest underdog footballer in history. In reality of all the usual top 30 legends, Cruijff is the true underdog footballer since color television started. No one else. He in truth had to take on various institutions that were not on his side, and not Maradona with his FIFA friends as Grondona high up.
Opta is not gospel There also isnt a widely held consensus on what an assist actually is The final pass preceding a goal A rebound shot Even earned penalties I think it would be safe to assume this Spanish wiki source follows a wider definition of assists rather than a strict one Strict or wide they are all theoretically 'assists' Zidane was also a very capable shooter from distance I wouldn't be surprised if one or 2 of his shots per season were scored off the rebound by Raul or R9 There are no instances that spring to mind as of yet
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2290597/Michel-Platini-challenges-Cristiano-Ronaldo.html https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....k-ribery-alleged-injustice-ballon-d-or?espv=1 The previous most powerful figure in world football also enforcing BS stereotypes https://www.marca.com/en/2015/06/02/en/football/international_football/1433276524.html You mean to say 32% of ronaldinhos la liga tally were penalties He is not alone so i will not be overly critical Maradona at napoli and even during his phenomenon class spell at Boca scored a ridiculous amount of penalties Historical Revisionists and eulogisers forget this of course Point being zidane even without the benefit of this statistical inflation to his G+a had solid record Is it impossible to imagine with the benefit of FK assists and penalties for juventus/real madrid he would've perhaps found his way onto here Most goals and assists of attacking midfielders since 1994/95 (club football only): Ronaldinho - 349 Mesut Özil - 302Wesley Sneijder - 294Kaka - 291Van der Vaart - 291D. Silva - 279Juan Mata - 277 pic.twitter.com/pLvBHMxd0L— MÖS (@MesutOzilStats) February 18, 2020 Zidane showed at Bordeaux and for the national team he was a reliable (even WC) set piece taker Not only that but the pressure of those moments did not affect him in the slightest A panenka against prime gigi buffon in a world cup final to put his team 1-0 ahead. Who the hell does things like that!!! The FK goal against spain 00 Pressure did not affect zidane The FK assist delivered with pinpoint accuracy(vs Brazil 06) It is not outlandish to claim Zidane would've and perhaps should've been on a list of the top 5 atracking mid G+A contributors since 94/95 If for one roberto Carlos at real Madrid hadnt been such a set piece ball hog. It is hard to say if del piero was in fact a better FK specialist as zidane The latter never had the chance or as many opportunities to prove his case
This is not true 40 Portuguese primera division goals in 26 matches at 31 years It is true the standard of the portuguese league during the 70s was abysmal Even hector yazalde with a mediorce record elsewhere scored an insane amount there Euesbio before 26 was if not as good then extremely close to Pele Baggio never scored 15 open play goals+10 assists in a single league campaign Before 26 or after it Not for juventus Milan Or inter If prime euesbio is on mount Everest than Baggio is on some random hill in your local park They are levels apart
Eusebio had knee problems after that age, and also played in midfield in a few seasons. While he past his peak and consistent best, he was almost topscorer of the Cup Winners Cup in 1971, had a great match against later finalist Celtic in 1970, and also played very well for the national team in the so called Independence Cup of 1972 (yes, you can call this a friendly tournament if you like). Admittedly the opposition he scored against in the 1970-71 CWC wasn't too great, but you can say the same about for ex. some of the Gerd Muller topscorer titles at continental level (for a start: 1976-77 after only doing damage against Banik and Koge, 1972-73 was sealed by Nicosia and Galatasaray, the two goals against a Cruijff-less Ajax were not necessary; it's not quite comparable to how Papin or RvN collected their EC topscorer titles). Eusebio has a strong case to be the greatest European player of the 1960s and second only to Pelé. Well Cristiano Ronaldo had at least Mendes working for him and later also Fiorentino Perez who managed to extend the BdO deadline. I agree however that for a while Platini and Blatter were not too happy with him and he's more of an underdog figure and self-made-man from a distant island than many others.
Baggio had knee problems his whole career... including at 18 when he was almost told he wouldn’t play again.
Just had a look for Frank Lampard and he would be on 444 (according to TransferMarkt) so some way out in front there. Am sure there are others who would top him. https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/frank-lampard/leistungsdaten/spieler/3163
I didn't say it was a correct or complete overview If we go by transfermarkt then the numbers - the first player I pick - for Kaka are also slightly different I see (308 rather than 291). Sure Lampard is high up somewhere. Just for Chelsea he had 211 goals (incl. 48 penalties) and 150 assists in 648 games = 361. League Cup and charity shield included. I personally placed him as the 5th-6th attacking midfielder since 1994 (with a preference towards 5-years peak window). 1256987878288166912 is not a valid tweet id He was surely a more 'rational' player than Zidane, who often (in particular in smaller games) did step-overs and ornaments when a team mate was nearby in a better position, after which the attack stranded. The most famous (and 'greatest') name to pop up is arguably Platini but he didn't take too many penalties and it was in a low scoring league. It will depend on whether a team is built around such player (I'm convinced this hurt Drogba his goal count, though it helped his respectable assist number; same for Ballack too), whether he takes many penalties, set-pieces etc. Zidane only attempted a dozen penalties in his club career and was at his best also significantly involved in the controlling part. He often sought congested areas (for the benefit of his team) whereas Lampard and Kaka sought the opposite for doing the damage. In recent times however midfielders shoot markedly less often, otherwise De Bruyne might have a go (at the expense of his assists, perhaps), provided he stays fit. On a per 90 minutes base, goals + assists minus penalties, he ranks very high.
"Teams understand that the odds are heavily against them if they encourage players to shoot from range - and by definition this responsibility used to fall to midfielders - and instead seek to stay patient and carve out a higher quality of chance from closer to goal. In 2010/11, there were 4,825 shots taken from outside the box in the Premier League. Last season, that figure had decreased to 3,644. This season, the percentage of shots from outside the box has fallen to 35 percent, lower than at any stage in the previous decade." https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/02/06/have-premier-leagues-goalscoring-midfielders-gone/ So increase De Bruyne his shooting with a factor three and the show is on (at the same time, one might argue Chelsea was more defensive and less dominant/stacked still despite the spending; the development-chasm not as skewed yet).
Sorry that this took a day to replay. I don't mean this arrogant, but to avoid repeating the same stuff again, my take is in the link here below. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/i...thout-esm-honors.2069927/page-2#post-38636426 I do see him as the main candidate for best player of the 1990s and disagreed with Vegan10 on this point. At the same time there are simply issues with how coaches saw him, and playing for the big teams past 1994. It's also peculiar how his grades for Brescia are better than the ones of his peak season in 1992-93. What his Italian wiki already says in the intro: "Durante la carriera ha diviso a metà la critica tra ammiratori e oppositori.[19][20][21][22]" I'm not sure whether his inability to gel at the bigger teams (post-1994) was only down to his knee. It was not only a thing of reduced playing time or not being able to play three games in a week. There was more to it than this. Furthermore, the domestic style of refereeing favored the designated star defenders and star forwards. "PAOLO MALDINI made the strange observation that he is not a fan of Premiership football, but is a big admirer of British referees, in an exclusive interview with planetfootball.com. The Milan and Italian captain admitted to feeling unhappy at the increasing physicality of Serie A football and blamed the smaller sides - such as this season's sensation and Milan's Sunday opponents Chievo Verona - for this. "There are teams that play this way because they cannot obtain good results any other way," Maldini said. "The little teams are like this. For this reason the games are not nice to see sometimes. "It is the mentality in Italy. Javi Moreno told me that in Spain he had time to receive the ball, to turn and to think what he has to do with the ball. Here it is impossible, as he turns is a defender near him." "In England, it is even stronger. It is terrible, but the advantage there are the referees. "I love Braschi in Italy, because he lets the game flow and doesn't whistle all the time. "British referees are like this. I would like to have British referees all the time." Such officiating style gives a marked advantage to the golden boys and provides room for very arbitrary decisions. Maldini in effect 'complains' that he can't do the same defending when going up against other designated stars. But Italy is not alone in that; FIFA themselves (here the effect in 1998) announced for the first time before the 1982/1986 World Cup that the so called superstars would get extra protection, with added punishment against perpetrators. That was their wish. Even with his unfortunate bad knees, defenders just were not allowed to defend Baggio in the same way as they defended Dario Hübner. That was his advantage. What I want to say is that there were mitigating circumstances, that his knees were less of a problem as they were for other players (of years gone by and his own day). When he was playing for Brescia one can see defenders just didn't get close most of the time and was allowed to play in his own slow tempo (there were also a few excellent fast games like vs Lazio in 2003). Otherwise it was a foul or yellow. They weren't allowed to get physical or rob him off the ball early in a duel (if they did that clean), didn't "let the game flow" - and the individualist scored only very sporadically against the best teams of the league. See also (about referee bias against taller players and against foreign players): https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/feb/07/capello-size-players https://tomkinstimes.com/2019/08/big-data-study-referees-are-biased-against-foreign-players/ Of course we have seen the same stuff and development in other sports as well. https://sports.yahoo.com/how-the-bad-boys-pistons-redefined-the-nb-as-next-generation-003352333.html https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-Michael-Jordan-got-away-with-carrying-the-ball-a-lot https://www.quora.com/Did-Michael-Jordan-really-commit-traveling-fouls-his-whole-career So I think the Baggio of Brescia is very overrated, just as the Zidane of his last 2 Real Madrid years is vastly overrated (with all his direct dribbling, trickery virtually gone and poor delivery in the Champions League; 0 goals and 1 assist in the last two CL seasons combined).
Absolutely ludicrous and revealing agenda by skysports indeed https://www.skysports.com/football/...le-maradona-who-are-the-greatest-players-ever https://www.skysports.com/football/...-squad-steven-gerrard-thierry-henry-roy-keane