Is Zico, not Maradona, the second best player?ever?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Izzy9, Jul 19, 2011.

  1. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    He counted wide rule assists to show goal involvement, not passing ability, that's the way he counted assists for both Maradona and Messi. But i can check one Messi season.
     
  2. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I checked for 12-13 season and it's 38 points brought to his team, which makes 38% of 100 points that they had. So Bada Bing did a good work. and used the method i described. You can check by yourself if you want.
    http://www.transfermarkt.com/lionel...pieler/28003/plus//saison/2012/wettbewerb/ES1
     
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  3. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    correct.
    It was the first time ever that a small club of the South (poorer) could ever win the title in history.
    Until then Napoli were still trying .. without much hope!
     
  4. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    you still did not get my point.
    It was not the number of points (correct or not) that determined the % of contribution, but the CONDITION and SITUATION are the two most important which you Bada and other STATS source could not include.
    Anyway ... fine by me ... just a reminder of truth
     
  5. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Well i did count situation, i counted as i described earlier. And if that's not good enough, we'll just have to agree to disagree. ;)
     
  6. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I just want to make sure we understand each other. You made this regard:
    - PlayerA of team ranked #1 beat another ranked #40: 5-0 and got 2goals +1ass (3 points for teh team)
    - PlayerB of team ranked #36 beat another ranked #20: 1-0 and got 1ass (still got 3points for teh team)
    - Player C of team ranked #45 tied to a team ranked #9 : 1-1 with 1 goal, and (got only 1 point for the team)
    I said that that's not the way he counted and that he did account situation, you agreed that the method i described is better but doubted that he used it, so i calculated myself and proved it.
     
  7. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Thanks to repeat them ... and Like I said ... Stats coudl not represent the whole story .. (and you confirmed )
     
  8. royalbluemersey

    royalbluemersey New Member

    Mar 28, 2015
    Club:
    Everton FC
    With great respect I think this is completely wrong.

    Look at Maradona's record. In European games for Barcelona and Napoli he never scored a non penalty against opposition from a Big 5 league country. In fact if we exclude minnows from Ujpest Dozja and a few penalties he never scored from play in Europe for Napoli !!!! A stat that would surprise many.

    He played superbly in 1986 but petulently in 1982 when sent off and in 1990 he added nothing a decent number 10 would not have added in his place...that Argentina went on to win the 1991 Copa without him.

    Superb left foot, great charisma and presence but behind the strutting and ability to attract the eye if we look at career long productivity we find he is inferior to both Platini and Zico and not in all time Argentinian top 2 ( which is Di Stefano and Messi ) never mind global top 2.
     
  9. Zincubus

    Zincubus Member

    Jun 3, 2009
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    For me it's Zidane , Messi then Zico ...
     
  10. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Can you give me narrow assists for all of his seasons in Napoli? I would really appreciate that .
     
  11. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Sorry I don't have them all.
     
  12. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Ok, no problem. I know that you posted earlier that he had 5 narrow assists in 84-85, and 4 in 85-86 and 86-87.
     
  13. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    Hard to compare, but Maradona is more famous because of WC86 and of playing in Europe in his peak while Zico "failed" in Italy mainly because of his injuries and in that time he had already 30+ years old. Zico prime was more between 1974 (Bola de Ouro Placar) - 1983 while Maradona more between 1979-1989.

    Here you can see good compilation:

     
  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Thanks mate
    That was the most beautiful comp I’ve seen in a while
    To briefly add to what has already been said zico is possibly one of only two players(the other being messi) who is in the discussion for being one of the greatest playmakers and goalscorers

    I don’t think (especially from what was shown in your comp)it can be said maradona was that much more talented (all things considered)
    I think his prime is considered one of the very best (besides pele and messi,maybe cruyff is there anyone who performed at a greater level than he did in 1981
    The 1982 wc should’ve been his crowning moment but he failed relatively speaking of course he was still good just not great imo


    I also don’t think it’s an accurate description to say zico failed for udinese,his first season was a great success despite his teams standing in the league
    (He scored at a superior rate to michel platini in the 83/84 league season)

    @leadleader i recommend you watch the above video it is an hour in length (and I know your not really a fan of players entire careers being cramped into 10-15 min video compilations)
    You cannot possibly watch zico and say he did not impress you.messi albeit a more prolific goalscorer and better dribbler is a carbon copy of zico especially in his post 2013 form
     
  15. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    I agree that Messi is better dribbler - not sure about being more prolific goalscorer tho and I know he got the stats yes - while Zico had better long passes, probably as good as anyone in this sport. The main difference of Messi and Zico, the biggest gap imo, is that Messi is way more explosive and strong and also much less injury prone than Zico too.
    If you ask me yes I consider Messi as the second best footballer after Pele, no problem here.
    _____________________________________________________

    About Zico yes, it is true but imo he still failed in the Italian League imo (and Udinese was a bad joke that didn't help too), his WC82 was indeed good too https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/top-5-individual-performance-in-wc-history.857945/page-27 but he didn't win the title that is the most important especially if you are looking with his eyes, a player that passed his peak in South America and needed to prove something to the world.

    He even said if he didn't win that WC he would be seen just as a good footballer, but not a true legend like Zito, Pele, Tostão.. that he could be.
    Pg. 79 and 80 https://books.google.com.br/books?i...ontcover&hl=pt-BR&rview=1#v=onepage&q&f=false
     
  16. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    Maradona vs Zico (by Italian media)

    Maradona 58/70
    Zico 50,5/60


    [​IMG]
     
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  17. MJWizards

    MJWizards Member

    Aug 17, 2019
    Hey Vegan, i just saw the article from La Stampa of September 21, 1983 and Platini was talking about "Free Kicks" and not like for overall player value.
    He said that Zico was the best in free kicks and Maradona was the 2nd best. he also said that Di Bartolomei was the best italian player for free kicks.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. MJWizards

    MJWizards Member

    Aug 17, 2019
    Unfortunately those ratings are not from the same journalist or book, so its not like you can really compare them plus some categories are missing. Like, Zico doesnt have the "Power" category but he has the "Tactic" and "Gol Sense" category.
    They share just Left foot, Right foot, Dribbling and Head. Shame that they couldnt make at least the same categories for all the players.
     
  19. MJWizards

    MJWizards Member

    Aug 17, 2019
    I will share later some interesting info about those 2 book with Zico and Maradona. I own them and They are both from La Gazzetta dello Sport.
     
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  20. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yes, mate, that was established later in further discussions.
     
  21. Toguchi

    Toguchi Member

    Atlético Mineiro
    Brazil
    Dec 1, 2019
    Belo Horizonte
    They were two great players, it's really hard to say who was the best. Zico is a top idol in Flamengo and Maradona in Boca. They are also two legends of South American and world football.
     

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