I'm sure those dates are not just for the Mexicans, but for the bulk of CONCACAF leagues that are playing then. When you go against the tide as MLS does, you run the risk of having obstacles like this. But it's easier to cast blame than to actually analyze the situation.
Uh, we didn't take a weak team to Costa Rica because MLS refused to release players. We took a weak team to Costa Rica because everyone was injured. Next you'll be whining about the Metrostars refusing to release Mathis, the Crew refusing to release McBride, etc...
Atouk's facts seem to be accurate in all respects. O'Brien was not released for the WCQ in Azteca, I believe Ajax had their first practice that Monday. He did play in Foxboro on October 7, 2001, but that was one of those fairly infrequent dates where all players are available for international matches. In August, 2001, Fire Fans were not at all surprised that Razov would play a game on August 25 while being left off the squad due to "injury" on August 22. It was widely believed that Bob Bradley needed him and didn't want him released. Razov weould have been better than Kirovski in those crucial matches. Let's face it, some coaches have jobs on the line come September. If they don't make the playoffs they will be fired. They are going to be much harder to deal with when it comes to releasing players than earlier in the season.
From the Washington Post on 8/22/2003: From the Houston Chronicle on Sept. 1, 2001: He was held out of a game a couple of days before the roster announcement so Bob must have bene planning these groin injury for a while then.
Whether Razov would have been better than Kirovski isn't really the issue, since both had been in the team before then and it was young Mr. Donovan who essentially took Razov's spot on the team. Tom, you can't be saying that Razov didn't play in the 8/18 game at San Jose due to a fake groin injury, just so he wouldn't be called up on the list released on 8/22 causing him to miss the game at the MetroStars on 9/1. While some players didn't play on 9/8, they were back with their teams and some did play, so he wouldn't have necessarily missed that one and players on the 8/22 list were available for the 8/25 matches. So, Razov, at the behest of Bradley, intentionally avoided national team service by missing one match when he wasn't hurt (8/18) just so he wouldn't miss one match two weeks later (9/1)? Seems rather self-defeating, since he'd miss one match either way under that plan.
Originally posted by monster I usually don't either. Sometimes it fits. The World Cup should be open to everyone. And the system I propose does not lock the door on anyone. Whose to say those "big boys" will always be the same? I reference T&T. Things change. No one should get a free pass. Exactly, so based on my system, T&T is relegated back to the preliminary rounds this year and have to work their way back to the final round. The system works. Who said it would pack Gilette Stadium? I think you did, not me. It gives people two more chanes to see the national team. I LOVE that. It gives two more stadiums a chance to host the team. No offense, but I don't LOVE that. I'd rather see our MNT pool either playing in MLS and generating more interest in our domestic league, and the European players not jeopardizing spots on their teams to come home for the US. Remember, Co Adrianse basically told JOB and Bruce Arena that if he wasn't back for Ajax training, his spot was gone. And this was for an open date on the FIFA calendar - and we were playing at Mexico. If you think World Cup qualifiers are pointless games, you're on crack. Just because we are - on paper - better than some of these teams doesn't mean the games aren't worth playing. Arrogance unchecked. Well, then light me up. Because I DO think a game pitting the US against a team like Guyana is pointless. Now, if Guyana has worked their way through preliminary rounds and have shown that they're a serious contender, then by all means, game on. But they're not, and most likely never will be. Reality unrecognized. They do. They all play a bunch of games in groups that are created based on past performance, if I'm not mistaken. No one gets to play fewer games. No one gets a few rounds off. God forbid teams have to *gasp* earn their way into a competition. Uh huh. UEFA seperates countries into 5 pools based on past performance. 9 groups are created, and the winners of those groups automatically qualify. 8 of the 9 second place countries play a home and away, and one lucky 2nd place team (in 2002 it was Ireland) gets to bypass the home and away with a European opponent and instead gets to beat up on an AFC team. That's not what is happening in CONCACAF. Does the winner of our group stages automatically qualify for the WC? No. Now we get to do it all over again in the final round. As I've said, the top 4 teams from our region should bypass the preliminary rounds and be entered straight into the final round. The preliminary stages determine the second 4. Once the final round is complete, the bottom 4 are dropped back into preliminary play after a year's vacation, and the top 3.5 go on to the WC. Grow a pair. First off, there wasn't one "excuse" in the quote this little gem was in response to. I disagree with the present system. How my disagreeing with CONCACAF's qualification degenerated into a personal attack on you, I'm not sure. Who's to say MLS won't adjust the schedule to take some of the pressure off at that time? You have no idea how this will impact our league when you have no clue how our league plans to handle it. Adjusting the schedule of MLS or any CONCACAF league would most likely not be necessary in the system I propose, which is why I think it is more fair not just to the US, but to the entire region, and especially the players. But don't let, you know, facts get in the way of a good hissy fit. It seems to me that if someone is throwing a "hissy fit," it aint me. I am disagreeing with a system, with a non-personal, non-emotional process and giving one alternative to how it could be differently and, IMO, more fairly. Unfortunately, as is usually the case in my history with you, I cannot seem to disagree with you on an idea without you taking it personally, getting your panties in a wad, turning into an emotionally-based personal attack afair, and acting like God's gift to wisdom. The fact that after a two-month absence to this forum you coincidentally show up to rail once again against Thomas Flannigan underscores what an emotionally small person you are. It is you, not I, who needs to "grow a pair." As we all know what a TF versus Monster thread will turn into, I think now is a good time for me to walk away.
I think they rested him as a precaution, then he was fit to play. I don't think they faked an injury. He missed one game as a precaution. I don't think Donovan took Razov's place. Donovan can play in the midfield as well. I think Razov is off the team because Coach Arena has some bone to pick with him, perhaps permanently. In 2002, 2002 and 2003, he was one of the top 3 or 4 offensive players in the U.S. Kirovski stinks. Please recall in the spring of 2002 Razov left camp to an an "injury" and played for the Fire that weekend. Some injury. I hope we can agree that the team that took the field in Costa Rica was not even our second string. You and I were at the game and talked afterwards and it was not our best effort nor did it involve our best players. I have no probelm with the way FIFA had the semifinal in 2001. You had 6 games spread over 5 months. Now you have 6 games crammed into 3 months, while the first round and the hex have plenty of time between games. It doesn't make sense to do it this way, but it sure hurts our chances of making it to the hex.
Against normal CONCACAF opposition, we should have a better-than-even chance of getting into the Hex even with your-choice-of-11-players removed from the player pool entirely... last time around we were drawn into the Group of Death - Guatemala would have gotten into the Hex out of either of the other two groups.
But it gets things into unequal steps. I don't think anyone should get a free pass. How do we know your system works when it hasn't been used? No one should get moved farther ahead based on what they did a few years ago. Things change too fast. Well, I'd love a pony. But just because we did well in this World Cup and qualified the time before that doesn't mean we should have our hands held out asking for a free pass. It's a new tournament. Earn your way through. One game. One player. One time. [/b][/quote]Well, then light me up. Because I DO think a game pitting the US against a team like Guyana is pointless. Now, if Guyana has worked their way through preliminary rounds and have shown that they're a serious contender, then by all means, game on. But they're not, and most likely never will be.[/b][/quote] So nice of you to decide who is worthy and who isn't. I'd be fine with the UEFA system. I'd be fine with any system that starts everyne at the sameplace. That's fair, not someone saying, "Oh, you're not good enough" without even playing the games based on what has happened in the past. Seeding is one thing. Handicapping is another. Sorry to have offended you, but let's just say you take an incredible condescending one. So do I, but when you play "I'll be president of CONCACAF and all other ideas and facts be damned," it's hard not to call bullshit on you. That's exactly the stuff I'm talking about. And how do you know there won't be adjustments necessary since people play all kinds of schedules, none of which have been set for the summer of 2004? Whatever. Maybe I stayed away because of pie in the sky, "Only I know better" crapola like this. Now that there's some news, I checked in. Sorry if I take facts and use them to work an argument instead of "What would I do if Heidi Klum liked me" scenarios that deal outside what is happening in the real world. There's a system. I like it. You don't. But that doesn't mean your fantasy is better than my reality. Don't like what I have to say? Don't hit the reply button. I'm more than happy to argue the facts here.
Sorry to see you leave this one, Nutmeg. For the record, I have not responded to a Monster post in a year. I don't even bother to read them. But I can't stop the organized antagonism some Big Soccer Moderators bring to discussions that I am involved in. It ruins it for people who want to discuss the WCQ schedule and DON'T want to read garbage about Roswell, insane asylums and other invective.
did a lot of damage? he, he. that is some funny shit right there...you really think the costa rican coaches are looking through bigsoccer to find out what line-up we were gonna use? tom, you are one funny guy. i got the information from soccer america's ridge mahoney who posted it on-line. i still wanna know, did aliens land in roswell? that is the real question that needs to be answered...
I have done nothing but discuss the qualifiers. Tough nuts for those who can't see the facts. Tom doesn't read my posts so he obviously misses a lt of facts. His loss. I'm more than happy to discuss any topic as long as people stay truthful and cut down on the hysteria. Fid - Got Bora and Sampson on speed dial?
beasley will play all six and love it. Donovan will be too tired and will miss at least one for a hair transplant appointment.
I agree that team was not our best and I was definitely surprised at our lineup at the time, but I think it didn't involve our best players because of injury and, more directly on point, I think that Arena got everyone that he wanted from MLS. That being said, we did have Friedel, Pope, Agoos, Llamosa, Stewart, Sanneh, and Armas in the starting lineup. Would Vanney, Williams, Kirovski, or Jones have started if everyone was healthy? No, but there were seven guys out there who many folks would have (at that time) put in their First XI -- unfortunately, not many of them (Stewart only) were part of our attack. In the end, our negative tactics were just as much at fault as our personnel. And even with our best team fully fit, a trip to Saprissa could certainly still result in 0 points for the Stars-and-Stripes. I still believe MLS won't try to stop Arena from calling up guys for WCQ matches. If they're worried about it, they'll schedule a week off. If they're not, they'll live with it and BA will get the players he wants. Euro-based players are, of course, a different kettle of fish.
You know, it wasn't THAT long ago when Mexico, etc saw the US nats pretty much the same way we now see Guyana...
Most assuredly not. As true tinfoil-hat wearers know, you poseur, there were 16 confirmed sightings of UFO's in 1947 in New Mexico. None of them were in Roswell NM proper. The alien remains which were taken to and stored at Roswell AAF in the 509th Bomb Group warehouse were recovered "in the Roswell region" according to the only contemporaneously published report. So the aliens actually "landed" out in the desert. That is, if you consider "crashing into a heap of rocks" as synonomous with "landing".
RMED. There was speculation that it was Ridge Mahoney (RM Ed), but I believe Mahoney denied it. Dunno if anyone ever actually pinned down the source.
Moose,you need to go to FFA more... Further trivia - what message board was the CR lineup first posted on? (hint:Not this one.)
For all those who think that MLS or any club and willfully deny releasing a player for internationa duty: http://images.fifa.com/fifa/handbook/circulars/PS 792 EN Annex II.pdf Read closely section a, paragraph 3. Whether or not our coach (keep in mind, Bruce has been publically mentioned as a candidate for the vacant Tottenham job - but then so has everybody else) actually calls up the players and risks the JOB effect is for a different thread. One thing that I haven't seen any mention here is that we don't have to win, just qualify. I would say we will definately have between 8 and 12 points in the final group. Leading up to that, we can probably have our B+ team out there with no problem and advance.
I am not responding to any point in particular, I just saw the latest Wynalda article on MLSNet and literally laughed out loud at this latest example of CONCACAF stupidity. I'm sorry, that should be written STUPIDITY SIDE NOTE ON BLAZER ADDRESS: CONCACAF's General Secretary Chuck Blazer spoke at the Honda Symposium on Wednesday and made the following statements: “Fear is not in my vocabulary” and that he was going to “hold Europe's feet to the fire” in regards to CONCACAF making Europe conform to CONCACAF's schedule for international dates. Well I have news for you: holding Europe's feet to the fire is certainly not the answer. And people wonder why our region has difficulty earning and gaining respect worldwide. You don't hold Europe's feet to the fire unless you want fear to be a reality in your vocabulary. Thank you Chuck, for punctuating my original point on this thread. For your sake, I am glad that people like monster are out there and have faith in you and your system. It's gotta be the only thing keeping you employed.