Thomas, IIRC, it was Soccer America's Ridge Mahoney who originally posted the lineup for that game in Saprissa. Then, various BS posters put up that information on this site.
Semifinal qualifying round, WC '98: 9-15-1996 St. Vincent - Mexico 0-3 9-21-1996 Honduras - Mexico 2-1 10-16-1996 Mexico - Jamaica 2-1 10-30-1996 Mexico - St. Vincent 5-1 11-6-1996 Mexico - Honduras 3-1 11-17-1996 Jamaica - Mexico 1-0 Elapsed time: 64 days
Tom, you keep repeating that, but it simply does not jive with the experience of '02. There were no "past problems" between the USSF and MLS regarding releases for WCQ matches. Arena got who he wanted when he wanted from MLS. Arena called up and started Richie Williams in Costa Rica because it fit with the strategy he chose based on who was injured at the time. You said "Normally, 2-4 Fire players would be called in." Four? At the time, it would have only been Razov (who was in and out of the team) and Armas. Wolff was injured. Razov wasn't called and Armas was. Boca and Beaz weren't in the picture then. Thornton wasn't called, but Arena had both Keller and Friedel (and called in Rimando and Garlick to camp). So, are you contending that Arena wanted Razov for Honduras/Costa Rica but the Fire wouldn't let him go, so Arena was somehow pressured not to call him? Come on, Tom.
I recall in 2000 Josh Wolf getting called up for a qualifier a few days before MLS Cup 2000. And, IIRC, Wolf played the qualifier but only came on as a sub for the Fire.
Originally posted by monster You mean we shouldn't do things like every other federation? Before now, we were the only fed to not have everyone start at square one. Sorry, but I don't find the "Everyone else is doing it" argument persuasive. CONCACAF is screwy. Warner is slime. But the system is the way it should be - everyone gets the same crack at it. I disagree. The reality of our region is that we have a bunch of nobodies and about 6-7 legitimate teams. For the same reason UEFA and COMNEBOL get more slots that CONCACAF and AFC, the big boys in our region get a pass to the final round in the system I propose. If the big countries are so much better, the extra games won't mean jack. AND we get two more home attendances. I'm sure the much anticipated standoff between the USA and Guyana will pack Gilette stadium. And what these pointless games against worthless competition does mean is that our domestic league suffers as its players are pulled away for a bogus game filling up the pockets of a crook. So what do you think UEFA should do with its minnows? I am a fan of the Furia Roja, and even I know that UEFA qualification is a joke. When Poland, Holland, and Portugal have to go head to head in their group while Spain cruises their way to the World Cup against Angola and Latvia, something is wrong. You might want to reconsider using UEFA as your model of how qualification should be. To say that everyone "gets the same crack at it" in that region is beyond dilusional. And for all Thomas' whining about the semis, the AFC played its semifinal stage in two months. Eight games in Asia in two months. Again, I think your comparison here is pointless. I really don't care how Asia conducts their qualifications - their region and ours are completely different. The semifinal round was shortened by a month, but I don't think six games in 90 days is a hardship. As for the USOC final, I don't think any date has been set for 2004 so maybe we can work around this little thing called World Cup qualifying. Look, I am positive your daily routine is to hit BigSoccer, do a search for posts by Thomas Flannigan, and then try to take the antagonist's point of view, but 6 games in 90 days in this region is just plain stupidity borne by corruption. It is a hardship on our players and our league, and when that hardship is unnecessary, it is up to our spineless confederation to do something about it. Again, I don't believe the system is "rigged," but as I've said, I think it is both corrupt and stupid.
I'm not going to defend the confederation, but the plus side of losing star players to these events is that reserves get to play in real matches that mean something. I don't think our league suffers at all as a result. I doubt if attendance drops noticeably when the national team is called to camp.
I usually don't either. Sometimes it fits. The World Cup should be open to everyone. Whose to say those "big boys" will always be the same? I reference T&T. Things change. No one should get a free pass. Who said it would pack Gilette Stadium? I think you did, not me. It gives people two more chanes to see the national team. I LOVE that. It gives two more stadiums a chance to host the team. If you think World Cup qualifiers are pointless games, you're on crack. Just because we are - on paper - better than some of these teams doesn't mean the games aren't worth playing. Arrogance unchecked. They do. They all play a bunch of games in groups that are created based on past performance, if I'm not mistaken. No one gets to play fewer games. No one gets a few rounds off. God forbid teams have to *gasp* earn their way into a competition.
TF - The "leak" came from within the camp. There was some poster (and I forget his name, but it wasn't fid.) that was posting accurate starting line-ups - I think he was related in some way to jmm. I wish I could remember his handle. Grrrrrrrrr Besides, the best we could have hoped for that game was to post the line-up and have the Ticos strain a stomach muscle by laughing so hard. Re : schedule - this is the price MLS is going to pay for running a May-Oct schedule (I just wonder if some of the Scandinavian teams have the same problem). So screwing everyone else would be fair then. Ntmeg - Stick that USA-Guyana game in Giants Stadium, and you may get a Guyanese majority. You'll at least get a bunch of desparate New Yorkers, who would be happy to get a crack at a WCQ. And to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure myself if I'm being serious or not. PS - welcome to the Big East Tom
No kidding. It wasn't like we went into that game with our strongest possible line-up. Though I have to admit, thought of other teams having someone surf bigsoccer for advanced warning that Richie Williams might play is pretty damn funny.
Chesko, if you say Ridge Mahoney did it that is another matter. Do you recall the threads attacking fidlerre for the leak? Do you recall the thread where I was in an internet cafe in San Jose trying to post a summary of the news, and it included great speculation about whether Reyna (or other players) would start? It is great to know your opponent's starting lineup a week in advance. You can prepare for the game that way. the llist posted here was a partial list with suprises. And it WAS accurate. By the way, fidlerre is not on my ignore list as he has some good insights. I can learn by reading his posts. That's why I was disapponted to read his shot about Roswell and space aliens. Noah, thanks for proving my point. The Clausera and Super Classico draw to a hysterial conclusion in April and May. Mexico has never been forced to play 6 games in 90 days during that part of the season.
So are you going to pay for my new keyboard, now that I've spit up a mouthful of soda and sub on the old one?
Atouk, Razov was only kicked off the national team in April, 2002. He played throughout WCQs and went to Korea for the December, 2002 friendly. His omission from the RFK-Saprissa swing disaster was probably dictated by club commitments. A few Fire fans talked at the time how Bob had said no. Same thing with Beasley. Bocanegra was tearing up the league that summer but, as you say, was sort of on the fringe at that point. We took a weak team to Costa Rica and it showed. By the time October 7 rolled around most MLS battles had been decided and we got the best MLS players. But you are not going to get them in September and October of 2004 because of the conflict with club commitments. Getting Reyna or Tim Howard 6 times over a 6 month period is possible. Six times in a 3 month period? Forget it! By the way, I have a lot of respect for Atouk and think he (and Nutmeg among others) are more knowledgeable about these matters than I am.
2003-2004 season openings Costa Rica - Aug. 17 El Salvador - Aug. 2 Guatamala - Aug. 2 Honduras - Aug. 9 Jamaica - Sept. 14 Mexico - Aug. 2 WCQ semi-final dates Wednesday, 18 August Saturday/Sunday, 4-5 September Wednesday, 8 September Saturday/Sunday, 9-10 October Wednesday, 13 October, Wednesday, 17 November So we're getting hysterical over one game that might conflict with the playoffs, two games that might conflict with the USOC final (unless they move that one week) and everyone else being in season for pretty much the entire round? So our guys have played more of their season. There may be some injuries. But those guys might have injuries too. Who's to say a Mexican player won't suffer a bad injury at the end of their Winter season and not be ready for qualifying? But it's only us that ever have to deal with problems, right?
They played six games in 64 days in the heat of the 1996 Torneo de Invierno, which is what is now called the Apertura, which is just as important as the Clausura. The semifinal round spanned from week 6 to week 16 of Mexico's 17-week schedule. That qualfiying round ended on Nov. 17, and the Invierno schedule ended Nov. 24. The "Superclasico" is a name for the rivalry between Chivas and America. They play twice a year. I can't figure out what the relevance of that is.
Razov tragic mistake - check everyone's out to get us - check no one else has to do this (proven wrong) - check And I must apologize because the CAF and OFC are having some teams skip one round. That's BS. Everyone should have to play the same number of games.
Noah, the early weeks of the Apertura are not as critical as the closing weeks, which take place in December. You are correct about the Super Classico (there are a couple of them). I am referring to the game between the Apertura winner and Clausera winner in May. Having qualifeirs during April and May would be bad news for Mexico. Having them in the fall is just fine. We took a sub-par team to Saprissa (Fraser, Williams, Kirovski and others who had not played much on the USMNT). Razov and other top MLS players were not released and Coach Arena did the best with what he had. He made mistakes too, with the 1-7-3 formation or whatever it was. But you have to have the horses and you can't get them when the MLS playoff spots and home field advantage are up for grabs.
This is what the U.S. team has been doing and will continue to do. This damn sport was never made easy for the U.S. It will help us get stronger and it will help us win the big one. A whole lot sooner than people think.
It seems that once again the obvious answer is group play: It is fair to all members and it will weed out the not so serious who, faced with a sure 12-14 game schedule would simply not enter the competition. I'm pretty sure that it could get down to 24-27 teams max leaving 3 groups of 8 or 9 (or fewer) to be played over two years. Past World Cup winners seeded first, the rest on the basis of Gold Cup (make the Gold Cup relevant)/FIFA rankings (built in advantage for larger nations who actually play a few games outside of WCQ or GCQ). 2nd place play round robin to determine 1/2 spot. For those who don't care what other Confederations do, the Holland example is irrelevant. For those who do, if you cant finish top 2 in a group that will at worst have 2 nations ranked in the top 50 in the world then you deserve to go home. Honduras and Haiti are not exactly Ireland and Portugal. If you finish behind both, you deserve to be out. Of course, for those of you with a beleif in the devine right of kings, this may be problematic.
Unless I'm sadly mistaken, the USOC and MLS schedules for next year have not been set up yet. Both should be able to accomodate the important WCQs. In fact, they could be used to them to add to the US SOCCER Coverage at a time when the US Sports calendar is pretty busy.
Tom, Beasley's only playing time in the WCQ was in November in Trinidad after we'd qualified (heck, Marsch played in that one) -- he wasn't in the mix for Honduras/Costa Rica. Donovan was just breaking in then, but that time frame is pre-Beasley. And Boca was not on the fringe. He started getting called up after qualifying was over. These games were Donovan's first in WCQs, so basically Donovan took Razov's spot. But there was a reason that had nothing to do with Bradley -- Razov had only recently returned to MLS. When he signed on 8/3, he said "The last full game I played was in Mexico a month ago, but I was in Europe for 10 days and did get a good week's worth of work. Like Bob said, we are going to sit down and talk a little bit. I think I will be able to contribute some minutes, but 90 minutes I would be putting myself out there risking injury. I don't think anybody wants to do that right now." By the time the camp roster was announced on 8/22, Razov had played three games, then came up with an injured groin and missed the game on 8/18. So, while he did play again on 8/25, it's hard to say that Arena should have relied on a guy who was clearly not fully fit and who had just missed his last game due to injury. Simply put, Arena took a fit, in-form Donovan over the returning-to-full-fitness Razov. Right or wrong, I think it was Arena's decision, not Bradley's. Anyway, I know you believe some things I don't believe and I respect where you're coming from. But, have any writers that cover the various MLS teams or the US team ever written that an MLS team moved to stop Arena from calling up an MLS player for a World Cup qualifier? I haven't read a hint of it. I'm not saying this is conclusive, but I'm wondering if there is any evidence out there for your theory. As for Reyna and Howard... Tom, I didn't discuss the Euro-based fellas. Dealing with those teams presents a whole different set of problems. I seem to recall that Arena didn't call up O'Brien to Azteca in order to keep Ajax happy ( http://www.soccertimes.com/wagman/2001/jul08.htm ). While they can't stop our players from coming to WCQs, they can threaten to move them to the bench, thus hurting both their career and their chances of playing for the national team in the future. No MLS team threatens to sit a guy who plays in a WCQ and they really have no other leverage. I stand by that. If MLS doesn't want to be missing their stars for some of these dates, they'll do like other leagues and won't schedule games on those dates.
IASOCFAN is correct, the USOC and MLS schedules are not out yet. But get a calendar and you tell me. All the qualifiers are on Wednesday nights or Saturday/Sunday-the times the USOC and MLS games are played. You can only slice it so many ways. I don't see how we can play any prep friendlies with such a jammed schedule, which comes at the worst time in terms of MLS club commitments. First round: 2 or 4 games in 155 days (DOES NOT CLASH WITH CLAUSERA BECAUSE THERE ARE NO GAMES BETWEEN MARCH 31 AND JUNE 12, 2004. Second round: 6 games in 59 days (head on head with critical games in MLS) Hexagonal: 10 games in 272 games (DOES NOT CLASH WITH CLAUSERA BECAUSE THERE ARE NO GAMES BETWEEN March 30, 2005 and June 4, 2005) The April-May gap in the first and third round is to avoid clash with the Mexican league is a longer period of time than the time the entire semifinal round is played. The schedule is great for Mexico. It is awful for the U.S.
These dates should be the same dates that UEFA uses for their WCQ matches. Therefore all healthy Euro players should be available. Again. We've got the schedule, MLS and US Soccer need to work it to our advantage.