That is, without sending Iraq into the stone age. So far, we've spent an enormous amount of money. I wish that there was a special war tax to pay for this. $1000 on every household and probably a few thousand more after that. Then we could see how supportive the public is. Our military did take people resisting an invasion of their country as a serious possibility. Not the best and brightest, to be sure. If another 9-11 happens, most of the world will cheer while the rest say "sorry, but it's your own fault" Good news? I can't think of anything. We secured a few oil fields? That's some fvcking expensive oil. Nothing would make me happier than everything turning around in the next few weeks, but at the very least there's a 50-50 chance that this is going to turn out an unmitigated disaster.
"If another 9-11 happens, most of the world will cheer while the rest say "sorry, but it's your own fault"" I think most people thought that 9/11 was our fault, they just wouldn't say it.
Thus disproving the allegation that we're doing this for oil. Unmitigated disaster?? We've advanced the equivalent of Normandy to Belgium in a week with what, 30 combat deaths (total number is 45--25 US, 20 UK--I think about 30 of these were in combat, but I'm not sure)? Maybe it's slightly more difficult than those on here who have no idea what they're talking about thought it was going to be, but if that's an unmitigated disaster, what the hell constitutes a success in your book? Look, we're right on schedule. Just because many in the general public thought our troops would be parading down newly-renamed Tommy Franks Ave. in Baghdad knocking up newly-liberated Iraqi women 15 minutes after the first bomb dropped, does NOT mean that our military and civilian leaders ever thought this would be the case. Our troops are being welcomed with open arms by most Iraqis. We're making superb progress, despite being slowed down by vicious sandstorms (alledgedly the worst in the region in 50+ years). We've suffered very, very few casualties, despite cowardly Iraqi tactics. We've inflicted very, very few civilian casualties, despite said cowardly Iraqi tactics and the likelihood that Saddam is killing his own people to try to blame it on us. Is everything going perfectly according to plan? No. Is it going to be hard? Yes. Is it anything remotely resembling an "unmitigated disaster"? Hell no. Alex
Yes. Total victory. Continued attack until the Iraqis realize that we cannot and will not tolerate a world in which a megolamaniacal dictator with no concern for human life is permitted to remain in power, festering away as a threat to every civilized nation on earth, at which point they realize that they have responsibilities as citizens of the world -- responsibilities that include ridding themselves of a corrupt evil government. Hopefully by then enough warpower will have emerged from the US that the Iraqis do what morally they must - surrender unconditionally. If not, continued attack until unconditional surrender is what is required. It did not turn Germany or Japan into the Stone Age, and will not do so to Iraq, either. Sovereignty is not just a right, it's a responsibility. The Iraqis must learn this, like the Germans and Japanese did.
Re: Re: Is there any way out of this? From the dictionary of Ben Reilly: Unmitigated success in a war - Troops placing their weapons on the ground and then having heterosexual relations with everyone in sight in order to spawn a new generation. Which results in a negative body count for the entire conflict.
I think this is absolutely wrong. Probably the Middle East is the only place where you'd get a significant number of people who believed that.
Re: Re: Is there any way out of this? How? It's not like it's coming out of Bush, Cheney, or Rummy's pockets. Hell, Bush's only business success also came on the back Joe Taxpayer. The only way I will buy the "it's not about oil" angle is if the administration has the puppet gov't honor contracts with French and Russian companies. Which, if they had stated so at the beginning, would've gotten us our required 2nd resolution. But, they won't - Halliburton already won a major oilfield contract for some undisclosed amount, and turned right around and subcontracted out most of the work to a company competing with them for the original contract... Hmmmm....
> Thus disproving the allegation that we're doing this for oil. The oil is costing billions. It is worth trillions. And when the rest of the world is saying, "Hey, buddy, can we have some of that oil because we ran out" it will be worth much more.
Re: Re: Is there any way out of this? Why do people keep making this analogy? Normandy was held by divisions of well armed and trained Germans, plus the terrain was brutal. Not to mention we actually had to make a landing and not just cross a line in the sand. The non-Republican Guard members of the Iraqi army are conscripts with little food or ammo, and except for a few bridge crossings the areas are desert.
Re: Re: Re: Is there any way out of this? I think it was a distance analogy, but I might be wrong in my interpretation.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Is there any way out of this? Well, you could compare walking from LA to NY or LA to Hawaii for similar distances, and not really accurately depict the difficulty of making such a walk. It really was a pretty foolish comparison. Why pick Normandy to Belgium, unless the goal is to draw more than a distance comparison? Why not pick some arbitrary pair of points in CONUS? I mean, hell - in a week I can drive to California, and a good portion of the way back. But that doesn't mean anything by itself.
Re: Re: Re: Is there any way out of this? Here's the deal. I've come to the inescapable conclusion that we don't know what the fuck we're doing. Instead of thinking this is a (foolishly) risky, but probably successful mission, I now see this is a pure roll of the dice. ...he says while the fighting is going on in Basra 10 days later... Oh, sorry. "Go team go...." Actually, I must confess to being more of a club than country guy. Go Wizards!!
I'm really not that worried about the war. Our soldiers are too well armed and trained for anything to go really wrong. The peace is another issue entirely.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Is there any way out of this? I think you've got to take a Thomas L. Friedman view on this war...the true benefits will not be seen until maybe 20-30 years down the road, if not longer... I agree, in the short term, there is a good chance that this war could end in absolute horror, with chemical weapons being used on troops, perhaps on Iraq's own citizens, and long drawn out urban battles. And yes, there is a good chance that there will be another terrorist attack on the US on the scale of 9-11 in the (relatively) near future. However, another such attack was likely even if we *didn't* launch a war on Iraq. What exactly did we do to deserve the *first* 9-11? However, if we stay commited to making Iraq a true paradigm of democracy and forward thinking in middle east, I beilieve the entire war will have been worth it. And for those of you who say Bush is not commited to building that kind of Iraq, well, Bush is not going to stay in the White House forever. If you don't like his policy regarding post war Iraq, I suggest you vote for someone who you feel *will* help turn Iraq into this model in the next election. Iraq, on the other hand, isn't going anywhere. There's plenty of time to help it grow. -Adam
Dear Jimmie: Ha ha ha, you hot dog eating surrender monkeys! Love, Ho Chi Minh ----------- But seriously, despite the fact that the bush team has obviously engaged in sexual congress with the canine regardign their war planning, we'll eventualy get the reinforcement to Iraq and then crush the Iraqis militarily. It's the prospects for the waging of the peace after the conquest that are getting dimmer every day.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is there any way out of this? It will be interesting to see how many of these fervent protestors will back their slogans and chants with a vote. If we took a poll of the protestors and received truthful answers, I wonder what the percentages would be that they are registered voters?
What? Try the whole freaking Bay Area believed that and SAID that. The far left blamed us after 9/11 repeatedly. Nice revisionist history. Heck, revisit Big Soccer threads from back then.
talkingpointsmemo.com passes this on...it's (part of) an e-mail from a former career diplomat who was an ambassador to a Muslim nation. He's talking about what we're gonna do when we crank things up again and are preparing to enter Baghdad. Personally, I have a hard time believing Bush would quit like that. But there you have it.
That is such a foolish email which reinforces my low opinion of career diplomats. The chances of what he says will happen are somewhere between zero and less. Bring back the UN inspectors to check out the areas outside of Baghdad? Huh? We already have troops in those areas and specialized scientists trained in chemical detection. Seems like Mister Diplomat has spent too many years in Muslim society to be taken seriously.
Re: Re: Re: Is there any way out of this? Wrong! Normandy is a good analogy because a very good portion of it was defended by so called Ost (east) divisions. Basically, these divisons were made up of Poles, Russians, Koreans, Czechs and others and were commanded by a few German officers. German manpower was severely weakened, and the eastern theatre was more critical to the German High Command, so these Ost divisions were put on the Atlantic Wall. These people didn't want to fight, but their German commanders made them.